Auf Wiedersehen to Knight Rifles?

simonkenton · June 3, 2009, 04:59 AM

A guy on another forum is saying that Knight Rifles is closing up shop.
Anybody heard of this?
This is hard to believe.

mykeal · June 3, 2009, 06:32 AM

It is correct.

MacGille · June 3, 2009, 10:46 AM

I debated whether to post on this subject, but in the end perhaps my opinion may find some acceptance with others so here goes.

I consider all inline muzzle loaders to be cheats. They were just invented to bypass the primitive hunting laws in many states. Some hunters wanted the benefits of modern technology so they could extend their hunting seasons. Without learning the history and science of early American weaponry. As one of the old timers in muzzleloading (the Lock,Stock, and Barrel Muzzleloaders of Southern California, in the 1960's) I supported the establishment of Black Powder seasons in Ca. I was dismayed at the appearance of inlines designed to produce high velocity bullets, scope sights, bolt actions,shotgun primers,sabots, etc. to get around the laws promoting Muzzleloading sports.:barf:

I have never liked poachers, or other hunting criminals, and I consider inlines to be in the same crowd. They are cheats and true BP shooters will admit that to be true. Just my opinion though, this is not a religion.

arcticap · June 3, 2009, 11:04 AM

Here's a link to an announcement about the closing:

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/

I wonder if someone will buy the company and try to resurrect it as a smaller operation at some point in the future?

Other domestic gun companies have experienced some hard times in recent years too, and H&R stopped offering their muzzle loading guns and barrels.

Pahoo · June 3, 2009, 11:10 AM

Quote:

I consider all inline muzzle loaders to be cheats.

Well, another reply to a question not asked. I do not agree with you, hi-jacking simonkenton post.

LBC, LBC ..

and

Be Safe !!!

arcticap · June 3, 2009, 11:30 AM

The closing probably impacts the Green Mountain Barrel Company's production lines too.
Aren't the 2 companies still linked through ownership?

simonkenton · June 3, 2009, 01:46 PM

Yeah, tough times for Green Mountain.
They are going to have a fire sale.

THREE FOOT STEEL TOMATO STAKES WITH 1/2 INCH HOLE IN THE MIDDLE

JWT · June 3, 2009, 01:57 PM

I believe that MacGille has a valid point concerning the inline muzzle loaders. I've often wondered why black powder seasons applied to them since I am more of a 'traditionalist' when it comes to muzzle loaders and black powder. That being said, it is sad to see a company like Knight go belly up. Guess the current 'run' on guns and ammo doesn't apply to Knight.

freakshow10mm · June 3, 2009, 02:20 PM

If you load the weapon from the muzzle, is it not a muzzle loader?

DrLaw · June 3, 2009, 02:52 PM

Quote:

THREE FOOT STEEL TOMATO STAKES WITH 1/2 INCH HOLE IN THE MIDDLE

Go to GRANT'S FARM in St. Louis, a nature preserve on the south side of town.

The fence around the park is made from Civil War musket barrels all welded together.

The Doc is out now.

PS, I don't consider inliners as cheaters. Just consider them a different section of the sport as those little lead pellets still go in one end of the gun and come out the same end. Consider, too, that there never used to be hunting seasons but for the people considered 'hunters' themselves who slaughtered wholesale and never practiced conservation until it was forced on them so there would be something to hunt!

DrLaw · June 3, 2009, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Guess the current 'run' on guns and ammo doesn't apply to Knight.

Gang bangers would have a hard time on drive-bys!

In so far as I knew, Knight had a good product. And of course, this economy not helping things (where's that change, Obama - oh yeah, it's what is left in my pocket). For you folks in the know, what are the chances of the company resurfacing?

The Doc slipped back in but is out now.

Raider2000 · June 3, 2009, 03:08 PM

I had 1 inline muzzleloader & it shot real good but it just wasn't me, I preferr more traditional lines but that is my preference not gospel.
I have no issue with anyone chosing the inline muzzleloader that is their preference & I do see why some would flock to them, they do have there good sides to them, ease of cleaning mostly & that they shoot those peleted propelents real well.

Now as far as Knight going belly up, I am supprised about that but as we see every day we see many companies closing their doors because of the tough times, I just hate to see all of those people loose their jobs.

CraigC · June 3, 2009, 05:58 PM

I hate to see any American company go belly-up but MacGille said what I was afraid to in another thread. The sole purpose for modern inlines was to cheat, to get around the rules and allow those who would've had no interest in muzzleloaders a chance to hunt the early season with as little inconvenience as possible. They must've been invented by a teflon-coated lawyer.

Mark whiz · June 3, 2009, 10:18 PM

Knight did indeed make a good product and like it or not, they got a LOT of people into blackpowder/muzzleloader shooting who would have not gotten into it any other way...........................and I'm one of them.
Are modern in-lines more accurate than old Kentucky rifles? By & large, yes. Are they typically easier to maintain? By & large, yes. So what - is that any reason to dis them or the people who shoot them? Yeah I started with a Knight USAK and wouldn't trade it for the world cause it has outshot anything else I've used - muzzleloader or cartridge gun. But I've also gravitated toward more "ancient" arms like my 1858 Rem pistol and once I can get out of Obama's Unemployed Army, I'm looking at building myself a Blunderbuss.
So, does having a Knight make me a cheater or does having a blunderbuss make me a "tradionalist"? What am I????

Sounds like the British dissing the Revolutionists because they had rifled arms instead of their old Brown Bess muskets.

ANYTHING that gets people into our sport, improves that sport and should be supported.

BTW..............I've NEVER hunted in a muzzleloader only season.

Raider2000 · June 4, 2009, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark whiz

Are modern in-lines more accurate than old Kentucky rifles? By & large, yes.

I have to correct you on this one because if the person does his/her homework a fully NMLRA legal Kentucky rifle shooting PRB can be as accurate as any modern inline muzzleloader within 100 yards, beyond that range the only advantage the newer weapon has is it's ability to shoot modern conical projectiles.

mykeal · June 4, 2009, 06:37 AM

This is a boom period for firearms manufacturers. While the reasons for the boom do not especially favor the traditional guns they are not being ignored either. Knight's demise is therefore a surprise. This suggests that there is more to the story than we've been told; I don't believe it's due to lack of sales in a depression economy. I think it's more likely an inability to obtain operating capital in today's tighter financial market. That says the banks and other capital sources don't like Knight's business model, which is a reflection on company management rather than the marketplace.

Knight made good products and they were well respected. They were not especially well marketed, however; competing with Thompson Center and CVA was difficult. T/C's solution to the tight money market was to sell the company to someone with deep pockets and a good business model; it remains to be seen what will happen, if anything, to CVA.

simonkenton · June 4, 2009, 07:16 AM

In 1980 I was a big time deer hunter in central Georgia. I was knocking off 3 or 4 deer a year. I had a beautiful scoped German Mauser sporter in 30-06.
Pretty easy shooting deer at 40 yards in that thick Ga. brush with that rig.

But, I had always been interested in old-time things.
I decided to try old-time hunting. The year was 1982, and I ordered a TC Hawken from Dixie Gun Works.
There was no internet, I didn't know anybody who hunted with black powder. There was no muzzleloading season in Georgia. Georgia would not have a muzzleloading season until 25 years later.
I decided to shoot the way Davy Crockett did, with black powder and the patched round ball. Sabots hadn't been invented yet, but there were conicals on the market. I just wanted to see what deer hunting Davy Crockett style would be like.
I just got my load info from the Dixie catalog, I had no other source for muzzleloading hunting info.
If this proved ineffective on deer, I would leave the muzzleloader at home, and go into the woods with the Mauser.

Well, my TC Hawken was one beautiful gun. I got 3 inch groups at the range.
I took my beautiful muzzleloader into the woods, and I shot a 4 pointer at 40 yards, lung shot. That deer didn't make 50 yards, fell over dead!
Hell, they always ran 100 yards when hit with the 30-06.
I thought, maybe Davy Crockett wasn't so dumb, after all.

From then on, I would use the muzzleloader on some hunts, and the Mauser at other times.
If I was hunting a logging road with a 150 yard shot, I took the Mauser.
In 1986, I bought a kit from Dixie for their Tennessee Mountain Rifle.
I put that gun together, it was even more beautiful than the Hawken!
And, I killed 2 deer, and 3 more hogs with the Tennessee Mountain Rifle.

Well, when I got to be 50, my eyes weren't so good. I had a hard time seeing deer in the brush.
I couldn't get good groups with my muzzleloaders.
But, I had really gotten into muzzleloading! I had to have a scope.
Not going to scope up my black powder guns, that would be a sacriledge.
So, I went over to the Dark Side, and I went whole hog.
I got the Savage. Now I shoot a smokeless powder muzzleloader, with plastic sabots, and a plastic stock.
What an accurate, hard hitting rifle!
Like the man said, "The only interesting rifles are accurate rifles."
I am not accurate with my black powder guns, so they are just not as interesting to me any more.
I could do without the plastic stock, I do plan to get a walnut stock.
I tossed the plastic Savage ramrod, and made up a ramrod, with supplies from Dixie, hickory ramrod with brass jag. I figure, this way I have some wood and brass on my rifle.

I do agree with y'all who say that inlines are cheating. Muzzleloading season was designed for old time guns with iron sights. I even like the original Pennsylvania rules, flintlocks only!
The reason Game and Fish allows inlines during black powder season is money.
They can get ten times the hunters into the woods, using inlines, and that means more money for Game and Fish.

Mark whiz · June 4, 2009, 12:16 PM

While I'm definitely gonna miss Knight, I have to agree with mykeal as to why they are no longer with us.
Over the last several years they have pushed the technology envelope to places it really didn't need to go and that kept their prices too high to be really marketable.

To the older "Geeks" here, you might say Knight made themselves into the Sony Betamax............too exclusive and too expensive to survive in the marketplace.

But for the next 20 or so years, I'll keep shooting my USAK with #11 caps until it wears itself into a smoothbore.

AdmiralB · June 4, 2009, 01:09 PM

Quote:

true BP shooters will admit that to be true

Quote:

Just my opinion though, this is not a religion

Which is it? Can't be both.

Please explain to me how inlines "cheat".

If I take the barrel, tang, and lock from, say, an 1853 Enfield, and mount it all on a thumbhole stock, am I "cheating"?

If I take said Enfield and mount a scope to it, is that "cheating"?

Is a T/C Hawken a "cheater's gun"?

Is a Root revolving rifle a "cheater's gun"? It's an inline, after all.

thallub · June 4, 2009, 04:40 PM

The demise of Knight does not come as a surprise to me. The proliferation of models coupled with that failed .52 caliber and the bad economy did them in.

Thompson Center has had several layoffs since late last year.

simonkenton · June 4, 2009, 05:58 PM

Yeah, that .52 was a fiasco. At least the num nuts who dreamed that one up is now out of a job.
I bet Knight lost a lot of money on that one.

"Let's see, 90 per cent of the ammo is made for the .50, and the rest is for the .54 and the .45, let's invent an obscure caliber that nobody can get ammo for, that has very little ballistic advantage over the .50"

They had an ad touting their little red primer holders as making the Knight waterproof.
The had a full page ad with a Knight setting in a 5 gallon bucket full of water.
The ad said, "Takes a Soaking, and Keeps on Smoking."
They said they had immersed a Knight for an hour and it still fired.

Well, I have been hunting for 30 years, including a lot of hunting in swamps, and along the Oconee River. I never have gotten my rifle submerged. I also don't hunt in the rain.
So, the performance after immersion is not a big deal to me.

I never owned a Knight, and a big reason was those stupid orange primer holders. I do know they made some very good guns, one of them, the Disc Elite, was routinely getting 3/4 inch groups right out of the box.
Hell I still can't do that well with my Savage.

June 3, 2009, 10:46 AM	#3
MacGille Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2006 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 976	I debated whether to post on this subject, but in the end perhaps my opinion may find some acceptance with others so here goes. I consider all inline muzzle loaders to be cheats. They were just invented to bypass the primitive hunting laws in many states. Some hunters wanted the benefits of modern technology so they could extend their hunting seasons. Without learning the history and science of early American weaponry. As one of the old timers in muzzleloading (the Lock,Stock, and Barrel Muzzleloaders of Southern California, in the 1960's) I supported the establishment of Black Powder seasons in Ca. I was dismayed at the appearance of inlines designed to produce high velocity bullets, scope sights, bolt actions,shotgun primers,sabots, etc. to get around the laws promoting Muzzleloading sports.:barf: I have never liked poachers, or other hunting criminals, and I consider inlines to be in the same crowd. They are cheats and true BP shooters will admit that to be true. Just my opinion though, this is not a religion. __________________ If ye love wealth better than Liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animated contest of Freedom, go from us in Peace. We ask not your counsel or Arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. --Samuel Adams--<*ixoye><

June 3, 2009, 10:18 PM	#14
Mark whiz Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: Wabash, IN Posts: 227	Knight did indeed make a good product and like it or not, they got a LOT of people into blackpowder/muzzleloader shooting who would have not gotten into it any other way...........................and I'm one of them. Are modern in-lines more accurate than old Kentucky rifles? By & large, yes. Are they typically easier to maintain? By & large, yes. So what - is that any reason to dis them or the people who shoot them? Yeah I started with a Knight USAK and wouldn't trade it for the world cause it has outshot anything else I've used - muzzleloader or cartridge gun. But I've also gravitated toward more "ancient" arms like my 1858 Rem pistol and once I can get out of Obama's Unemployed Army, I'm looking at building myself a Blunderbuss. So, does having a Knight make me a cheater or does having a blunderbuss make me a "tradionalist"? What am I???? Sounds like the British dissing the Revolutionists because they had rifled arms instead of their old Brown Bess muskets. ANYTHING that gets people into our sport, improves that sport and should be supported. BTW..............I've NEVER hunted in a muzzleloader only season. __________________ "Every moving thing that liveth, I give unto you as meat" (Gen 9:3) Aim small.........miss small. Trust God..........but keep your powder dry!

June 4, 2009, 12:16 PM	#18
Mark whiz Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: Wabash, IN Posts: 227	While I'm definitely gonna miss Knight, I have to agree with mykeal as to why they are no longer with us. Over the last several years they have pushed the technology envelope to places it really didn't need to go and that kept their prices too high to be really marketable. To the older "Geeks" here, you might say Knight made themselves into the Sony Betamax............too exclusive and too expensive to survive in the marketplace. But for the next 20 or so years, I'll keep shooting my USAK with #11 caps until it wears itself into a smoothbore. __________________ "Every moving thing that liveth, I give unto you as meat" (Gen 9:3) Aim small.........miss small. Trust God..........but keep your powder dry!

June 3, 2009, 04:59 AM	#1
simonkenton Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 891	Auf Wiedersehen to Knight Rifles? A guy on another forum is saying that Knight Rifles is closing up shop. Anybody heard of this? This is hard to believe.

June 3, 2009, 06:32 AM	#2
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	It is correct.

June 3, 2009, 11:04 AM	#4
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	Here's a link to an announcement about the closing: http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/ I wonder if someone will buy the company and try to resurrect it as a smaller operation at some point in the future? Other domestic gun companies have experienced some hard times in recent years too, and H&R stopped offering their muzzle loading guns and barrels.

June 3, 2009, 11:30 AM	#6
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	The closing probably impacts the Green Mountain Barrel Company's production lines too. Aren't the 2 companies still linked through ownership?

June 3, 2009, 01:46 PM	#7
simonkenton Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 891	Yeah, tough times for Green Mountain. They are going to have a fire sale. THREE FOOT STEEL TOMATO STAKES WITH 1/2 INCH HOLE IN THE MIDDLE

June 3, 2009, 01:57 PM	#8
JWT Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2007 Location: Southern Arizona Posts: 3,888	I believe that MacGille has a valid point concerning the inline muzzle loaders. I've often wondered why black powder seasons applied to them since I am more of a 'traditionalist' when it comes to muzzle loaders and black powder. That being said, it is sad to see a company like Knight go belly up. Guess the current 'run' on guns and ammo doesn't apply to Knight.

June 3, 2009, 02:20 PM	#9
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	If you load the weapon from the muzzle, is it not a muzzle loader?

June 3, 2009, 03:08 PM	#12
Raider2000 Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 719	I had 1 inline muzzleloader & it shot real good but it just wasn't me, I preferr more traditional lines but that is my preference not gospel. I have no issue with anyone chosing the inline muzzleloader that is their preference & I do see why some would flock to them, they do have there good sides to them, ease of cleaning mostly & that they shoot those peleted propelents real well. Now as far as Knight going belly up, I am supprised about that but as we see every day we see many companies closing their doors because of the tough times, I just hate to see all of those people loose their jobs.

June 3, 2009, 05:58 PM	#13
CraigC Junior member Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 4,300	I hate to see any American company go belly-up but MacGille said what I was afraid to in another thread. The sole purpose for modern inlines was to cheat, to get around the rules and allow those who would've had no interest in muzzleloaders a chance to hunt the early season with as little inconvenience as possible. They must've been invented by a teflon-coated lawyer.

June 4, 2009, 06:37 AM	#16
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	This is a boom period for firearms manufacturers. While the reasons for the boom do not especially favor the traditional guns they are not being ignored either. Knight's demise is therefore a surprise. This suggests that there is more to the story than we've been told; I don't believe it's due to lack of sales in a depression economy. I think it's more likely an inability to obtain operating capital in today's tighter financial market. That says the banks and other capital sources don't like Knight's business model, which is a reflection on company management rather than the marketplace. Knight made good products and they were well respected. They were not especially well marketed, however; competing with Thompson Center and CVA was difficult. T/C's solution to the tight money market was to sell the company to someone with deep pockets and a good business model; it remains to be seen what will happen, if anything, to CVA.

June 4, 2009, 07:16 AM	#17
simonkenton Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 891	In 1980 I was a big time deer hunter in central Georgia. I was knocking off 3 or 4 deer a year. I had a beautiful scoped German Mauser sporter in 30-06. Pretty easy shooting deer at 40 yards in that thick Ga. brush with that rig. But, I had always been interested in old-time things. I decided to try old-time hunting. The year was 1982, and I ordered a TC Hawken from Dixie Gun Works. There was no internet, I didn't know anybody who hunted with black powder. There was no muzzleloading season in Georgia. Georgia would not have a muzzleloading season until 25 years later. I decided to shoot the way Davy Crockett did, with black powder and the patched round ball. Sabots hadn't been invented yet, but there were conicals on the market. I just wanted to see what deer hunting Davy Crockett style would be like. I just got my load info from the Dixie catalog, I had no other source for muzzleloading hunting info. If this proved ineffective on deer, I would leave the muzzleloader at home, and go into the woods with the Mauser. Well, my TC Hawken was one beautiful gun. I got 3 inch groups at the range. I took my beautiful muzzleloader into the woods, and I shot a 4 pointer at 40 yards, lung shot. That deer didn't make 50 yards, fell over dead! Hell, they always ran 100 yards when hit with the 30-06. I thought, maybe Davy Crockett wasn't so dumb, after all. From then on, I would use the muzzleloader on some hunts, and the Mauser at other times. If I was hunting a logging road with a 150 yard shot, I took the Mauser. In 1986, I bought a kit from Dixie for their Tennessee Mountain Rifle. I put that gun together, it was even more beautiful than the Hawken! And, I killed 2 deer, and 3 more hogs with the Tennessee Mountain Rifle. Well, when I got to be 50, my eyes weren't so good. I had a hard time seeing deer in the brush. I couldn't get good groups with my muzzleloaders. But, I had really gotten into muzzleloading! I had to have a scope. Not going to scope up my black powder guns, that would be a sacriledge. So, I went over to the Dark Side, and I went whole hog. I got the Savage. Now I shoot a smokeless powder muzzleloader, with plastic sabots, and a plastic stock. What an accurate, hard hitting rifle! Like the man said, "The only interesting rifles are accurate rifles." I am not accurate with my black powder guns, so they are just not as interesting to me any more. I could do without the plastic stock, I do plan to get a walnut stock. I tossed the plastic Savage ramrod, and made up a ramrod, with supplies from Dixie, hickory ramrod with brass jag. I figure, this way I have some wood and brass on my rifle. I do agree with y'all who say that inlines are cheating. Muzzleloading season was designed for old time guns with iron sights. I even like the original Pennsylvania rules, flintlocks only! The reason Game and Fish allows inlines during black powder season is money. They can get ten times the hunters into the woods, using inlines, and that means more money for Game and Fish.

June 4, 2009, 04:40 PM	#20
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	The demise of Knight does not come as a surprise to me. The proliferation of models coupled with that failed .52 caliber and the bad economy did them in. Thompson Center has had several layoffs since late last year.

June 4, 2009, 05:58 PM	#21
simonkenton Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 891	Yeah, that .52 was a fiasco. At least the num nuts who dreamed that one up is now out of a job. I bet Knight lost a lot of money on that one. "Let's see, 90 per cent of the ammo is made for the .50, and the rest is for the .54 and the .45, let's invent an obscure caliber that nobody can get ammo for, that has very little ballistic advantage over the .50" They had an ad touting their little red primer holders as making the Knight waterproof. The had a full page ad with a Knight setting in a 5 gallon bucket full of water. The ad said, "Takes a Soaking, and Keeps on Smoking." They said they had immersed a Knight for an hour and it still fired. Well, I have been hunting for 30 years, including a lot of hunting in swamps, and along the Oconee River. I never have gotten my rifle submerged. I also don't hunt in the rain. So, the performance after immersion is not a big deal to me. I never owned a Knight, and a big reason was those stupid orange primer holders. I do know they made some very good guns, one of them, the Disc Elite, was routinely getting 3/4 inch groups right out of the box. Hell I still can't do that well with my Savage.