Clinton's take on Black Hawk Down (Oh brother!)

[Legionnaire]

From today's WSJ Editorial Page:

Clinton's Black Hawk History
On Somalia, the ex-president is as mendacious as ever.

Tuesday, August 6, 2002 12:01 a.m. EDT

We wish Bill Clinton a quiet retirement, if only he'd return the favor. But when the former President distorts history for the sake of political advantage, someone has to clean up afterward.

Responding to Bush Administration suggestions that some of today's corporate scandals first got out of hand under his watch, Mr. Clinton recently shot back: "These people ran on responsibility, but as soon as you scratch them they go straight to blame. Now, you know, I didn't blame his [President Bush's] father for Somalia when we had that awful day memorialized in 'Black Hawk Down.' I didn't do that."

We can understand Mr. Clinton wanting to defend himself, but as usual he can't get his own facts straight. His introduction of Somalia here is one of those breathtakingly brazen attempts to dodge responsibility for which Mr. Clinton is justly famous. Here's the real history:

President Bush the Elder sent U.S. forces into Somalia in December 1992 to aid the United Nations in relieving a massive famine. In May of 1993, four months into his term, President Clinton declared that mission accomplished and pulled out most of the U.S. force. In a speech on the South Lawn to associate himself with the effort, he extolled the decision to intervene: "If all of you who served had not gone, it is absolutely certain that tens of thousands would have died by now." It was a "successful mission," he said, and "proved yet again that American leadership can help to mobilize international action."

But back in Somalia, with no U.S. deterrent, Somalia's warlords began fighting again. After a series of bloody attacks on U.N. peacekeepers, Mr. Clinton launched a new mission: In August 1993, he sent in a force of Rangers and Special Forces units to capture the brutal warlord Mohammad Farrah Aidid and restore order.

That force asked for heavy armor--in the form of Abrams tanks and Bradley armored vehicles--as well as the AC-130 gunship, but the Clinton Administration denied those requests. On October 3 on a mission to pick up Aidid, two Black Hawks were unexpectedly shot down; in the ensuing urban gun battle, 18 American soldiers were killed and another 73 injured.

Many military experts believe that if the U.S. forces had had armor, fewer would have died. Secretary of Defense Les Aspin resigned two months after Somalia, having acknowledged that his decision on the armor had been an error. A 1994 Senate Armed Services Committee investigation reached the same conclusion. But perhaps the most poignant statement came from retired Lieutenant Colonel Larry Joyce, father of Sergeant Casey Joyce, a Ranger killed in Mogadishu: "Had there been armor . . . I contend that my son would probably be alive today."

Mr. Clinton's responsibility in Somalia doesn't stop there. Despite the mistakes that October day, Aidid had been struck a blow. The U.S. military, with 18 dead, wanted nothing more than to finish what it had started. Mr. Clinton instead aborted the mission. The U.S. released the criminals it had captured that same day at such great cost, and the U.N., lacking U.S. support, was powerless to keep order. Somalia remains a lawless, impoverished nation. Worse, the terrorists of al Qaeda interpreted the U.S. retreat from Somalia as a sign of American weakness that may have convinced them we could be induced to retreat from the Middle East if they took their attacks to the U.S. homeland.

Those are the facts. The reason Mr. Clinton can't blame the events of "Black Hawk Down" on President Bush's father is because those events had nothing to do with him. They were Mr. Clinton's responsibility, and his alone.

[ahenry]

Why am I not surprised that a guy like Clinton can’t even remember the people that died under his command. I’d really like to introduce that guy to my size 10 boot.

[ojibweindian]

I really hate that cheeseburger-eating bastard and hope he dies choking on a BigMac.

[sig970]

Did you see him on the news the other day talkiing about the middle east. Completely shooting down our current President and then saying that if the West Bank would have ever been invaded he would have GRABBED A GUN AND JUMPED IN A FOXHOLE TO FIGHT.

What a lying bastard. Grabbed a gun just like he did in Vietnam, the draft dodging jerk.

[Watch-Six]

I knew better than to even look at this thread. I knew it would piss me off. And as expected it did. Watch-Six

[George Hill]

Wasn't it CLINTON that denied the propper air support? Things could have been a lot different has there been an AC-130 in the air that day, and if needed, that night. But I doubt that anyone would have been in town after dark had they been given the backup. That alone would have saved at least a good handful of lives right there.

[ojibweindian]

APCs and tanks would have made the operation a quickie.

[4V50 Gary]

If Clinton was an alcoholic, I'd send him a case.

[BigG]

Jeez, why don't you guys take off the kid gloves and say what you really think?

You have expressed my sediments exactly.

[Chief Jones]

That lying SOB is the reason so many good men lost their lives there. I knew some of them and it kills me that they were used as pawns in that bull****. He's also the reason we STILL have troops in that sh**hole called Bosnia. Been there, done that. Made the decision to retire that much easier. Damn, gotta go cool off now....

Woody Jones
CW4 USA retired

[Blackhawk]

Clinton? :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf:

[BigG]

Here's my take on BHD:

http://www.epinions.com/content_53396999812

[Jamie Young]

we had that awful day memorialized in 'Black Hawk Down.' I didn't do that."

Bill Clinton is an "evil" man. The problem is, he is the puppet master for many.

He's a ****ing bastard too.

[paratrooper]

Klinton claims that he would jump into a foxhole and fight . Kinda makes me wanna be a "Palistinian For A Day" .

[dfaugh]

But he is without question THE biggest POS ever

[Jamie Young]

But he is without question THE biggest POS ever

Thats not harsh enough... you have to say something stonger than that. Push the limits like I did. Type what ever word ya want to and the TFL software kicks in and deletes it.

[PATH]

Clinton, Bubba > a vile piece of maggot food. He is an absolute lying sack of S**T. I wish he'd inhale on a car exhaust pipe!

[Jamie Young]

Good job PATH. Who wants to top that? Quick!!! Before the Moderators come in and "pretend" we have to be civil when talking about Clinton.

[Hal]

From today's WSJ Editorial Page

Hmmm, maybe the media isn't as far gone as I thought.

[Zander]

Wasn't it CLINTON that denied the propper air support?

Actually, the nation's First Sociopath denied the most basic ground machinery for our soldiers.

He was "concerned" about escalation of the conflict...or so his spinners claimed.

[Malone LaVeigh]

If Clinton was an alcoholic, I'd send him a case.

No, he's a lieaholic. I wish people would quit feeding him...

[legalhack]

May he slowly burn to death in a firey car crash.

[flinch_of_gt]

It's a given in most TFR discussions that the inclusion of armor and the Spectre would've reduced the casualty count.

With my limited knowledge, I've always wondered how armor would've fit into TFR's operational planning. The key weapon of Delta Force and the Rangers was speed in securing the area, seizing their objective, and egressing from the target area before the Sammies could figure out what had happened. The ground force was equipped with thin-skinned vehicles because they were faster in a crowded urban environment.

The one place where armor could've helped was with the 10th Mountain Division's Quick Reaction Force, which had to borrow APCs and tanks from our UN allies in order to enter the city. If I remember my military history correctly, sending armor into cities without dismounted infantry is usually a death sentence. For example, the Russians sent in an armored unit to the center of Grozny during the Chechen war, and lost 20 of 26 tanks, 102 of 120 BMPs, and 6 of 6 ZSU-23s in the first three days of fighting (to be fair, the mounted infantry didn't dismount during the initial fighting, and that was a Bad Thing)

Hypothetically, we have a reinforced company of Bradleys, backed up by a platoon of M-1 Abrams, going into a city full of RPG-wielding nutjobs. The column comes down a street, the Sammies immobilize the lead and rear vehicles with track hits, and now we have a big problem. Not only do we have two chopper crews down, we have a trapped column.

Some will argue that if the QRF could go in without losing vehicles, our superior equipment would've been fine. QRF entered the city around midnight, which was when most of the local fighters were sleeping off their khat buzz. TFR went into the Bakara Market in the afternoon, which was the peak of the daily khat buzz.

In terms of air support, both the Somalis and the Americans agreed that the crews of the AH-6 Little Birds were the only thing separating TFR from a total rout. I'm not sure what the AC-130U could've added to the mix, especially since the front lines were extremely close.

Ultimately, the men of TFR managed to accomplish their mission despite terrible losses, and inflicted the most one-sided defeat in recent history.

And Clinton managed to piss the whole thing away.

[legalhack]

Flinch, your logic is flawed. Look at how they got the dudes out - with a lightly armored column of Paki vehicles. AC 130 is designed to be used in close proximity to troops. "Glint tape" is used to identify friendly from slims; an overwhelming application of combat power would have retrieved the troops quickly and not led to the debacle. Our troops acquitted themselves marvelously, too bad they lost as many as they did.

Bad for the "operators", one day they are hunting aidid, the next they are body-guarding him as he is flown around in a US Chopper. Brilliant use of force by the Clinton administration........

[flinch_of_gt]

The Paki vehicles entered late at night, though. Prior to the Bakara Market raid, TFR operated at night to lessen the risk. Most of the Somali fighters were sound asleep by the time QRF extracted the Rangers.

The hypothetical QRF would've gone in at the height of the battle, when most the militiamen were massively hyped up on khat.