Deer Hunting Cal's .30carbine ok-.223 not ?

[KROIL]

Last year for the first time my state ok ed the use of the M1 carbine .30 caliber round for hunting deer. BUT the .223 is ilegal. I have been thinking on this. Both are small/limited for taking these big minnesota whitetails but with correct shot placement would be effective. As far as I know our bordering states of Wisconsin and Michigan allow .223 and .30. Heck a .243 does not fire a much larger bullet than a .223 can. But .243 has more snort. There are some very effective and accurate hunting .223 bullets out there. I just dont see where our DNR is coming from on this. Maybe they legaled up the .30 for deer cuz of some of the pistol calibers being used like .357 mag. But I will be on the other end of the spectrum - using a .45/70 for opener.

[RockyMtnTactical]

You're correct, shot placement is key and many a whitetail has fallen from a well placed shot of .223.

Some hunting regs. just don't make any sense sometimes though... I would rather use a .223 to take a whitetail than a .30Carbine...

[Hawg]

Personally I wouldn't consider either one.

[Red_Eagle]

You oughtta check out the hunting regs for NY. Buckshot is illegal, but a 22 Hornet isn't.

[tyrajam]

Must just be the heavier bullet available for the 30, although if I HAD to hunt deer with one, I would pick the 223.

[Charles S]

You are correct...it is a very interesting dichotomy, but then again it is a government reg...is it really supposed to make sense?

I would choose a 223 with the right bullet over a 30 carbine any day. Although neither would be my first choice. I really believe deer cartridges start with the 243.

[Dirty_Harry]

All I know is that I can shoot my AR-15 10 times better than my Carbine...223 wins here.

[Crosshair]

Don't forget your neighbor to the west. In North Dakota, any .22-.49 caliber centerfire rifle is legal. FMJ bullets of any type are illegal for taking deer.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

Hmmm... are you sure ???

state ok ed the use of the M1 carbine .30 caliber round for hunting deer. BUT the .223 is ilegal. I have been thinking on this. Both are small/limited for taking these big minnesota whitetails

being from MN myself, it's my understanding that 357 Mag / 10 mm are the lowest powered legal cartridges... while the 30 carbine meets size requirements, that it gets an exception against use, & that the 10 mm while not big enough, size wise, gets an exception for use, it's been that way for several years... IMO, changing that law to allow 30 carbine use would be stupid ( not that anything involved with new laws & or law changes has "ever" had anything to do with "smarts" )

& the 243 has tons more energy than the 223...

BTW... my southern MN ( shot gun & handgun zone ) deer gun is a T.C. Contender also in 45-70

[Magnum Wheel Man]

Hmmm... took some diging, but I stand corrected... here is a link to legal cartridges as per the DNR...

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/regulatio...artridges.html

but still feel the 30 carbine would be IMO, even less lethal or equal to a bow & arrow, & should be used at similar ranges...

[nosualc]

FWIW, MN regs also won't allow for any caliber below .23.

Don't feel bad MagnumWM, I recall the .30 carbine as being expressly forbade some years back as well. I wonder when/if they changed it, or whether we're both imagining it.

I don't have a beef with either reg., but if I lived in an area where the deer were on average much smaller I might consider them silly.

-nosualc

[gak]

Neither - and I'm a big .30 Carbine fan--and not "anti .223" (for other purposes). Sometimes just because you can kill something with a particular caliber, doesn't mean you should. Consistent, humane kills generally demand more caliber (either dia. or in combination with oal...which, ultimately, effectively play their way into the ballistics of the round). Regardless of whether the .223 would be considered by many to be more lethal generally, I've seen too many deer torn to shreds inside with it (not by me btw) and others get away wounded with a trail of blood. Regarding the pistol-length calibers, To me, which would include the .30 Carbine, as a general rule .357 should be the minimum (again combining diameter and oal as the criteria--which to me would leave out its .38 Special companion; in this mix, the .30 Carbine is identical in oal but doesn't meet my dia. criteria. Similarly, a 9mm or .357 Sig meet the diameter criteria but not oal).

And, to me, .243 (as a combination of caliber and oal) would be the minimum in the "standard" (but short action) rifle calibers. I would argue that, among the medium-shorts (6.5G, 6.8SPC, 7.62x39, .30-30, etc.), something like the 6.5 would be the lower limit...and among the mediums, .257 Roberts. Then all sorts of other factors then come into play. For instance, one would normally (I hope) not shoot a deer with a "cowboy load" in .357....so for pistol-length cartridges we're talking "standard hunting loads," whatever that might be. Some will argue that a "hotted up" .32-20 (.32 WCF) can do the trick and did in the old west...and it can, but again doesn't mean that it should. A cartridge's "effective range" is another factor. Hard to legislate that, but hunters should be aware that at 100 yds a .357 can be a pretty good ".30-30" substitute. Not so at 150-200-250.

[Art Eatman]

Remember the reason for .22 centerfires made illegal: Going back, .22 centerfire bullets were designed as varmint loads. (And, such as the .22 Hornet were low power...) There were many instances of bullets blowing up on entry, making surface wounds.

Laws and regulations rarely keep up with technological advances. Again, bullets suitable for heavier animals are a relatively recent development.

As far as just caliber, the .30 Carbine might be legal--but it's still marginal at best.

Art

[taylorce1]

Neither one are legal in my State. We have energy requirements to go along with caliber and grain restrictions. The requirements are 70 grain bullet or heavier for deer, .243/6mm caliber or larger, and 1000 pounds of energy at 100 yards. .223 can't make caliber or energy and the .30 carbine can't make the energy. FWIW I wouldn't use either on any deer.

[castnblast]

As big a fan I am of my 22-250, I'd really err toward the 243 even if it were legal to use a 223 cal there. Those deer are twice the size of the TX deer I shoot w/ mine. I think the 243 is a great deer round - w/ the right bullet of course.

[dm1333]

Michigan allows .223. I read and re read the regulations and then talked to a Conversation Officer to triple check. My AR with a 5 round mag is my back up rifle in case my .30-06 does not come back from the gunsmith in time. After a lot of research and shooting a few different .223 rounds I feel confident that out to 100 yards a good softpoint will do the job as long as you put the bullet where it needs to go! Maybe I'll make the Nuge and Jim Zumbo proud this fall!

[billindenver]

Neither one are legal in my State. We have energy requirements to go along with caliber and grain restrictions. The requirements are 70 grain bullet or heavier for deer, .243/6mm caliber or larger, and 1000 pounds of energy at 100 yards. .223 can't make caliber or energy and the .30 carbine can't make the energy. FWIW I wouldn't use either on any deer.

I believe the 223 wssm can make both the grain and the energy requirements set down here (hand loaded because I believe the largest grain factory load is 68gr)...but due to the caliber restriction can not be used. The 68gr factory load is listed as cxp2 on the box. I don't believe they are legal to use here in colorado on cxp2 game though. Not really certain on that as I just got mine for plinking and haven't considered hunting with it yet.

[CamoCop]

.223 is more than capable of downing whitetails. more whitetails have probably been taken wit .22's than any other round (poachers).

[44 AMP]

They don't have to make sense, they are put out to make the hunt "sporting", not simple or easy. Most of them go way back to the days before more modern cartridges and bullets. Many have been updated, but some of the old ones still stand.

One poster said in NY state, buckshot was illegal, but a .22 Hornet was not. That is a change from when I lived there 40 years ago. At that time, buckshot was not legal, neither was any .22 caliber. However, at the same time, any centerfire handgun was legal, outside of shotgun only zones!

30 years ago, WA allowed only .41mag, .44mag, .44automag, & .45 Win mag for handgunning deer, but only if you had a 6" or longer barrel! I had to trade a 4 5/8" Ruger .41 for a Marlin .30-30 to hunt deer! Today, the state does not have a barrel length restriction, it just requires a certain amount of energy to meet the requirements.

.30 Carbine has been on many states approved lists for generations, because it is ".30 caliber", and it was just assumed that .30 cal was good enough. This has changed some places, but not all. .30 Carbine will cleanly take deer, at short range if you do your part. But game laws are written to allow for those who are not the best shots. Even though a good hunter can use it well enough, many would not, and so it is prohibited. That's why many states ban any/all .22 cal rifles for deer. Until recently, FMJ or varmint bullets were almost the only thing .22 cal rifles used, and neither is suitable for deer hunting as a sport.

[samsmix]

I've shot a few (4) speed-goats with the .223 and 55gr SP ammo. Also 1 forked horn mule deer. The deer went down fast, but all 4 antelope required follow-up shots even after well placed heart/lung shots. STRICTLY an experts only caliber.


FWIW, it is LEAGAL to use a .22short for moose in Montana, but shotguns need single-aught buck or larger for big game, while Muzzle loaders need to be at least .45. Go freakin' figure!