Problem with Win 231 in .357 magnum

[Smokey Joe]

Have used 3.4 grains of Win 231 with 148 grain lead wadcutters for years with excellent success. Mild recoil, mild report, better accuracy than I can shoot.

Happened to get hold of a box of 158 grain semi-wadcutter cast lead bullets; thought I'd try them. So began researching loads to use.

Winchester reccommendation is for a max of 6.7 grains of 231 with 158 grain lead bullets. Couldn't find any other recipie than Winchester's for using 231 with 158 grain cast bullets, so nothing to compare it with. The Lyman books (47th, 48th, and Pistol & Revolver) don't mention using 231 in .357 magnum, Loadbooks of course repeats the Winchester reccommendation. My Sierra and Nosler books don't cover cast bullets.

OK, they know their own product I expect. Loaded up a series of 10 each of 6.0, 6.1, 6.2. 6.3, 6.4, 6.5, 6.6, and 6.7 grains of 231 with my 158 grain cast lead bullets. To the range to try 'em out.

The 6.0 grain loads produced a tremendous report, a tremendous kick, lead on the outside of the cylinder of my revolver, and mediocre accuracy. Geez, that seemed like a lot of noise and recoil. (Far more so than my loads of 180 grain hard-cast bullets with 2400 powder. I had thought that that load barked loud.)

And I know that 231 is known for Kabooms if double-charged, which is doable because it takes very little space in the cartridge case.

So I stopped the testing. Asked the experts @ the range--One of 'em took a Hornady book off the shelf and found a max load of 231 with 158 cast bullets of 4 point something grains! Everybody agreed that the 6-plus grains of 231 was a huge overcharge.

And 4 plus grains of 231 sounds about right for a 158 grainer, since Winchester's reccommendation for a 200 grain lead bullet is 5.5 grains of 231. So why reccommend so much more powder for the 158 grainer????

Any comments or suggestions? I reload quite a number of rifle loads, and feel I know what I'm doing there, but to the present have only loaded a couple pistol loads, so I'm kind of in unknown waters as it were.

Is Winchester's recipie for 231 with 158 grain lead bullets excessive? Or is a huge noise and recoil and lead deposit to be expected and this is normal? Should I be using a different powder altogether?

Now I have 70 crimped rounds to pull the bullets from, so as to use the powder in my nice tame target loads. Bah! But I sure don't like the thought of Kabooming my nice Smith & Wesson!

[Mike Irwin]

Well, the problem seems to be that you're expecting to find mid-range target .38 Special loading data in the .357 Magnum section.

That's not going to work.

The loads you've dropped back to are nifty .38 Spl. target loads. Look in the .38 Spl. section of your loading manual, but remember that if you're loading .38 Spl. charges in .357 Mag. cases, pressure will be lower.


I use anywhere from 5.7 to 6.5 (IIRC, DO NOT USE THAT FOR A LOADING RECOMMENDATION!) when I'm assembling .357 Magnum loads in .357 Magnum cases with 158-gr. LSWCs.

[Mal H]

Smokey Joe - I'm glad you had the wisdom to stop when you realized what was happening.

I checked several loading manuals and found none that agreed with Winchester that 6.7 gr is the max of W231 with a 158 gr lead bullet in .357 Mag. Speer recommended 5.4 gr max and Hodgdon recommended a similar load. That's a pretty big difference from 6.7 grains for a relatively fast powder like 231. But it must be understood that the pressure and velocity from those two load manuals indicate that the max loads are fairly light for a .357.

As Mike implied, I don't think you're going to harm your pistol with those rounds you've already loaded. They are certainly magnum loads, not 38 Spl plinking loads. You will get more leading, recoil, noise - all those things that make the .357 Magnum a great caliber.

BTW, what model S&W are you using?

[tjhands]

Guys, I hate to hijack the thread, but I have to ask......what is the difference between using a 158g cast bullet and using a 158g JHP? Why is less powder used for the cast bullet? I only shoot 158g JHP's in my .357 and I always use 6.6g of W231. According to my books, this is on the light side.

[Mike Irwin]

Generally less powder is used for lead because you can often get higher velocities with less powder in lead. Lead's softer than the jacketing material, which drives pressures up.

Also, you have to worry about driving lead bullets too fast. If they're not hard enough, and you attempt to push them to the firewall, you'll leave a lot of lead in the barrel.

[tjhands]

Mike, thank you!

[Unclenick]

At a seating depth of 0.350", QuickLOAD shows 6.7 grains of WW231 to be nearing maximum pressure with a gas check 158 grain bullet. To fire a cast bullet with no gas check at this load level is just asking for lead spitting. And, with the resulting deformed bullet base being the last thing the gas jet pushes just after the bullet clears the muzzle, accuracy is bound to be compromised, even though the pressures should be safe.

3.4 grains of 231 pushes a 148 grain wadcutter at a little over 700 fps from a 6 inch barrel. To get the same velocity with the heavier 158 grain bullet requires about 3.3 grains. This may be counterintuitive, but because the longer bullet seats deeper and is harder to move, it raises the pressure and the powder burns more efficiently (ballistic efficiency = 28.1% vs 26.2% for the 148 grain bullet in examples I ran).

Nick

[Smokey Joe]

Fascinating! I thank you one and all. Will continue researching the exact right load.

These 158 grain SWC's are not gas-checked bullets; I was planning on using them for target loads to see if they did better or worse than the 148 grain wadcutters I've been using. I just happened on a box of 'em for cheap; thought I'd give 'em a try.

(You know how it goes--somebody at the range has a "box of reloading junk" he had to buy all of but only wanted half of. So he unloads the half he didn't want.)

I do understand that if lead bullets w/o gas checks are pushed past about 900 fps there will be leading problems.

BTW, since I posted, I found that the Chuck Hawks website repeats the Winchester reccommendation for 231 with a 158 grain lead bullet, also.

Mal H.--My S&W is their beautiful 586, with 8 3/8" bbl. When I got it it had Pachmayer grips replacing the originals, otherwise it is bone stock and I like it very much, both for target (I shoot league bullseye) and for hunting.

[Mike Irwin]

"I do understand that if lead bullets w/o gas checks are pushed past about 900 fps there will be leading problems."

That depends on how hard the bullets are.

I typically take some of my .357 Mag. lead loads upwards 1,200 fps. without undue leading. They are, however, extremely hard bullets.

[Russ5924]

I have been loading most of my .357 with 4.3G of W231 just for general target shooting.But have been getting away from the .357 and shooting mostly .38 with 3.7 of W231 with the 158 SWC

[LAH]

FWIW I shoot 5.5 grs. of 231 in a Mag. case with the L-358429 @ 170 grs. This is a mid-power load doing 1050 fps in my 4" M-19. I wouldn't think twice about using 6 grs. with a 158. Of course that's just MHO.

[somerled]

Smokey Joe,

I cracked the forcing cone on a nice S&W 19 using fast burning powder in .357 brass. It was a "safe" load well under the top loads in two manuals, which I had used for quite some time without any flattened primers or sticking cases.

As you can see in the Winchester data, that load with 231 cranks out quite a bit more pressure than the load using 296. Those Winchester specs are for an overall cartridge length of 1.59 inches. A lot of cast bullets I've used have crimping grooves in such a place so they are seated deeper in the case. That will jack up pressures even more. If you work up loads in colder weather and happen to go the range and try the same loads in July, it can become really unpleasant. One can frag himself if he tightens up a crimp or if some slightly longer cases get thrown in the mix.

When using 231 behind commercial cast, plain-base SWCs I use no more than 4.7 grains of 231 in .38 Special cases. Those group very well compared to 5.4 grains of 231 in magnum cases. The powder fills the special case up better and the standard deviation is very low when I've chronographed them. When using the fast burning powder, the .357 brass usually shows a high standard deviation in velocity and often severe vertical stringing in groups. The pressure is too erratic.

I guess the short version is that slower burning powders leave a greater margin of error in long revolver cases.

[Smokey Joe]

Thank you one and all for your thoughtful responses! Will B pulling the bullets, re-reloading the .357 cases with a lot less 231. Will report the results.

Thanks again!

[molonlabe]

I use 4.2 gr of 231 in a 38 sp case and get about 860 ~ 890 fps. I can only imagine what 6.7 gr would be even in a .357 case. I agree 900fps will cause leading with LSWC which I use often. Above that you need to use jacketed or gas checks. I would also consider using the 38 sp cases and save the .357 for magnum loads with powders like 296 or 2400. just my opinion