|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
July 12, 2009, 11:05 AM | #26 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 14, 1999
Location: Maine
Posts: 756
|
Get yourself away from the situation. Great, you're armed but once it's brought into play, the situation is escalated. Much better to not have that happen and have things occur that can't be changed. Just because you're armed doesn't mean it's a duty or expectation to stand and fight. Best to avoid and remove yourself from the event.
__________________
Shoot safe, shoot often |
July 12, 2009, 01:52 PM | #27 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: February 27, 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 392
|
Skydiver3346 wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Scott
__________________
"I don't like repeat offenders, I like dead offenders!" Ted Nugent |
||
July 12, 2009, 03:09 PM | #28 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 23, 2009
Location: Nevada
Posts: 644
|
Quote:
|
|
July 12, 2009, 03:11 PM | #29 | |
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Scott, you apparently missed this part:
Quote:
|
|
July 12, 2009, 03:49 PM | #30 |
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
My reasons for disagreeing with the recommendation to command the person to "get on the ground" are as follows:
Using deadly force when immediately necessary to prevent death or serious bodily harm is something else again, but I do agree with those who have suggested trying to disengage, and frankly, I would do so even if I lived in a "stand your ground" state. After that, the less-than-lethal option would come into play. I hope this appears less argumentative than my previous post and that it proves more helpful. Last edited by OldMarksman; July 12, 2009 at 04:20 PM. |
July 12, 2009, 04:51 PM | #31 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 3,652
|
I'm sorry if this is a repeat reply. I haven't read the whole thread. Honestly, I would tell him to stop and stay exactly where he is. If he did, then I would follow with "if you really want to talk and it's serious, then I can meet you at the police department tomorrow". If he does not stop, get in the car and drive away while calling 911.
I mentioned the option of actually talking to him in front of LEOs, well, because I assume you know this man to a degree. Know him as in former friend/relative. If he's a neighbor that you don't know well but started a bunch of crap, I probably would still give him a chance to talk if there is a pleading tone in his voice. If there's been some kind of fued (which could lead to him threatening you like he did), he could honestly be sorry and coming to apolagize. If that's the case, I'd let him do it IN FRONT OF LEOs. Even if he apologized, don't let that change anything between you. He's threatened your life. Forgive him, but don't trust him and move on. In the sweet by and by, at the original encounter during your first post... I would tell him to stop, if not then I would've went back to the car. If he started to chase me, then I would definately begin to resort to the firearm if I thought there was a SHRED OF A CHANCE THAT HE CAUGHT ME BEFORE I COULD GET AWAY. Otherwise, keep the fact that you're carrying low-key and try to handle it without the use of the firearm, but have a plan to draw and be ready. |
July 12, 2009, 06:09 PM | #32 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 27, 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 392
|
OK, duly noted!
But that doesn't change my opinion that guns in the hands of civilians are for personal protection, not to uphold or enforce the law. Scott
__________________
"I don't like repeat offenders, I like dead offenders!" Ted Nugent |
July 12, 2009, 06:43 PM | #33 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 23, 2009
Location: Nevada
Posts: 644
|
Quote:
I understand the objections to telling the guy to get on the ground; that makes sense. But howabout yelling, "STOP! DO NOT COME CLOSER!" IF he fails to stop and you can't just get in the car and drive away (by far the preferable option), continue with, "YOU ARE VIOLATING A RESTRAINING ORDER. IF YOU COME CLOSER, I WILL DEFEND MYSELF!" If and only if he continues to approach after this, draw the gun and shoot or use the pepper spray or employ whatever other less-lethal means of protection you might have. I think that is focused completely on the self-protection/safety issue and gives the guy more than adequate warning that you view his approaching you as a threat for a compelling reason (the restraining order and, by implication, the events that caused there to be a restraining order) and will react accordingly. If the disparity in age and size is as extreme as the OP indicated, I don't believe that a judge would consider your acti0ns unreasonable, although I am not a lawyer. What do the rest of you think? |
|
July 12, 2009, 08:31 PM | #34 | ||
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Quote:
Quote:
From what I've learned, shooting at that point might get you in a lot of trouble. A lay opinion won't help here, I think. You back away, he keeps coming, then what? Less than lethal option? And if that doesn't work... If you do end up using deadly force, I think the issue will be, what evidence can you produce to convince others that said force was immediately necessary to prevent death or serious bodily harm. Some ideas:
Thoughts? |
||
July 12, 2009, 09:13 PM | #35 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 4, 2009
Posts: 190
|
Id be wondering how i shrunk 6'' and lost 100 pounds., But seriously id not engage unless he attacked me physically.
|
July 12, 2009, 09:14 PM | #36 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Posts: 897
|
You might not be under any authority, but the point of a restraining order is for someone to not be near you for your protection. If this person violates that, it is an attack. The given history of the situation would call for a slim to none chance that this person only wants to "talk"
Quick is relative. A quick "Get down on the ground" takes 1 second to say fully. Repeating this should at least make the guy stop if not back away. If not you have a problem. If a person who has such an order ignores you while you have a gun then you have a bigger problem. No one in the right mental state would ignore a person pointing a gun at them. |
July 12, 2009, 09:23 PM | #37 | |
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Quote:
You certainly want him to stop. I should think you would also want him to get away. What is the point in the "quick 'get down on the ground' "? Wouldn't telling him to get away be more likely to get the desired result? |
|
July 13, 2009, 04:56 AM | #38 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 3, 2008
Posts: 2,109
|
I agree with the folks are suggested defusing situation by moving away from the hostile.
HOWEVER, if he gets you by surprise and you are armed, knowing that he has threatened to physically hurt you previously, SHOOT HIM. Let the chips fall where they may. Nothing is more precious then your life, atleast that is the prevailing principal we beleive in. I also suggest that you start carrying a non-lethal bullets or a stun gun to avoid this mess, but if push comes to shove use your weapon. After all, it is for SD not a paper weight you carry all day. |
July 13, 2009, 09:23 AM | #39 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: In a state of flux
Posts: 7,520
|
rmocarsky ~
I would recommend a quick walk through www.useofforce.us for an overview of the "rules of the road" for when you can legally fire your weapon. I'd also (strongly!) recommend that since you do have this significant level of concern with a true threat, that you immediately get some training from a qualified professional firearms instructor. This whole "get advice off the internet" gig really sucks, even on a good forum like TFL. Get your advice from people qualified to give it, who can discuss the situation with you in a much more personalized and detailed manner. pax |
July 13, 2009, 09:28 AM | #40 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 19, 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 161
|
Old Marksman
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Seems to me there is no one right answer: If I can retreat, I will...If I can call 911 I will, If I can get him on the ground at gun point because the first two options are not feasable, I will. If he continues to approach me after I have exhausted the above non-lethal option, I may have to shoot. Also regarding LTL options (pepper blaster etc). I have heard it said that carrying these LTL options for civilians is bad idea. Should you ultimately shoot someone while carrying a pepper blaster, you now must convince the AG and possibly a jury that not only were you in danger, but the danger was such that your pepper blaster would not have worked (subjective, of course). That means that the BG better have had a gun (or you have a great lawyer). If all you have is a firearm, then you don't have to overcome that intermediate hurdle. Just that you were in imminent danger. BTW - I'm not sure I buy this argument, but I have heard it somewhere before.... |
|||||
July 13, 2009, 09:35 AM | #41 | |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
|
Quote:
Besides that, most situations not involving a BG with a gun will provide an option for pepper spray. Sure, an all out unexpected physical attack may not but most muggings or robberies, and certainly the situation in the OP, will give you time for pepper spray. Additionally, most situations involving an obvious intentional violation of a restraining order will be sufficient cause for use of pepper spray, in and of themselves. In a situation like the OP, a shot in the face with spray and a hasty retreat in the car on the phone to 911 would NOT be questioned.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; July 13, 2009 at 09:41 AM. |
|
July 13, 2009, 10:56 AM | #42 |
Member
Join Date: June 29, 2009
Location: TX
Posts: 65
|
4:30 a.m.
Its 4:30 a.m. ! If it was me & he was in my yard waiting on me & I'm 58 & a little guy. I would tell him to leave ! If he didn't start leaving he would probably get shot ! But, I'm not 58 I'm 30 & pretty big so, I would just whip his ass.
__________________
Keep it out of the dirt. |
July 13, 2009, 10:59 AM | #43 | |||||||
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Quote:
Is there perhaps some liability associated with giving certain commands? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You apparently missed my comment to Skydiver, in which I agreed with his recommendation to firmly tell the person to stop and that I was prepared to defend myself. Nor did you address my concern. To answer your question, however, yes, I think it probably would be better to have fired at someone from whom the evidence would show I had been trying to escape than to have the authorities selecting from among my words that I said that he refused to get on the ground when I told him to and I shot him, particularly when I am permitted to respond only with "yes" or "no." Lay opinion. Quote:
Quote:
Nor do I know what one would expect to do after he was on the ground. I would want him gone, not lying near my driveway. And if I have gotten him on the ground, what criminal and/or civil liabilities might I have assumed? Consider the case of trespass. In some jurisdictions, the property owner or tenant is to ask the trespasser to leave, and if he refuses, the remedy is to call the police. Should he try to restrain the trespasser, the property owner or tenant can be charged criminally, and after the trespasser considers his legal options, "then the fun begins." Here too, the issue may be jurisdiction-specific, and Pax's recommendation that the OP seek qualified advice is a very good one. Another key thing that may be jurisdiction-specific is whether and/or how the existence of a restraining order may influence the determination of when deadly force may be indicated. Quote:
|
|||||||
July 13, 2009, 12:39 PM | #44 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 23, 2009
Posts: 143
|
Don't forget that the restraining order implicitly binds you from contact also. You do not own the restraining order. IOW, you cannot decide to talk to this guy even if he seems very nice and sincere. A judge has prohibited that.
In Texas a LEO could arrest if he were to see the subject in violation of a RO. If not he would refer the incident to the appropriate court where a Contempt of Court summons, or possibly warrant would be issued for the subject to show cause why he should not be held in contempt. You can always carry a copy of the RO and brandish it menacingly in his face. |
July 13, 2009, 01:01 PM | #45 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 1999
Location: Knoxville, in the Free State of Tennesse
Posts: 4,190
|
Quote:
Dropping the subject could be justified, but not necessarily on the facts given here. Disparity of force comes into play as does the subject's prior threats, but if you have an alternate means of protecting yourself (assuming you can get into the car and get moving safely) take it. One question, though, is whether you are leaving anyone behind that the subject might vent on. Is there family in the home involved in whatever led to this situation? If so, are they a target and have you set up a response plan with them? |
|
July 13, 2009, 04:20 PM | #46 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,971
|
Quote:
I would get in the car, lock the doors roll up windows, drive to a safe place call 911. I would not shoot him or talk to him at all, just drive away. A good dog on a leash would help hadda throw that in. |
|
July 13, 2009, 05:32 PM | #47 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 23, 2009
Location: Nevada
Posts: 644
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
July 13, 2009, 07:32 PM | #48 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2005
Location: free territory
Posts: 203
|
To the OP,
Can you get a remote controlled lighting system installed that can be activated as you pull in your driveway. It would allow you to scan the area before getting out of your car.I wouldn't try to do any more than take the guys picture and get the heck outta there. Hopefully, you'll have some one at home to vouch for the inside of the house or an alarm system to let you know if the house has been penetrated. Best, Rob |
July 14, 2009, 11:49 AM | #49 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 14, 2009
Posts: 196
|
Get back in the car and leave while dialing 911.
|
July 14, 2009, 12:02 PM | #50 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 16, 2008
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,891
|
Let him get close then pistol whip the heck out of him... He probably deserves it.
Ok, well don't actually do that... but definately don't shoot the guy if you DON'T HAVE TO.
__________________
Hopp Custom Leather <------ click for HOLSTER awesomeness!! -There is no theory of evolution... Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live. |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|