Why shouild I keep my shotgun ? - Page 2

Jeffet · November 22, 2001, 12:36 AM

As mentioned earlier, I wouldn't underestimate the civil-suit repercussions of a scumbag lawyer holding up your AK ("Osama's favorite") in front of a jury versus holding up "Grampa's bird gun"...if indeed, it goes that far.

Unless you live near Ted Kazinski's (sp?) cabin, I don't see where you can NOT be concerned about overpenetration...unless of course you can catch the intruder between your muzzle and your mother-in-law (in which case forget the AK, pick up the .300 Magnum)...

Jeffet

Dave3006 · November 25, 2001, 12:12 AM

If someone is in your house at arms reach, the name of the game is putting them down FAST. Let the word FAST burn into your soul. If he lives for one second after you shoot him, he lives long enough to kill you before you die. The shotgun puts people down faster than ANY other weapon. Period. It is not perfect. But, it is the best. If he has armor, shoot him in the head. AKs and ARs handle better and have more capacity. But, they do not put people down as FAST.

Every defensive scenario has one thing that is the most important. Home defense is FAST incapacitation. In war on the open battlefield, this is not as important. Here, it is.

JamesA · November 29, 2001, 04:44 PM

Shotgun....You bet, I'd rely on my shotgun as the altimate home defence weapon. Infact maybe the most deadly firearm at close range...If you dont want that ole mossberg 590....I'll take it..I have a moss.590 and love it...

Darxus · December 2, 2001, 02:57 AM

9 pellet 00 buckshot had a 8" pattern at 10 yards. That was a lot wider than I expected given what I read in this thread about shot not spreading much. Even at 5 yards, that comes out to a 4" spread. (20" 12ga)

What shocked me more was the #8 shot that I got 60 rounds of because it was the cheapest at the shop ($3 per 20). The first shot I fired, at maybe 5-7 yards, I pulled the target back, noticing the one big hole, maybe 1" in diameter. From what I'd read here, that's about what I expected it to do. One big hole. Then I noticed the entire (8.5"x11") target was completely covered with tiny holes. Looking at the cardboard backer, I noticed the pattern was maybe 2 feed wide. Definately at least a foot and a half.

I am ashamed to say that was the first day I ever fired shot out of my shotgun. It was the first gun I got, and I've spent a good bit of time at various ranges. I fired maybe half a dozen slugs through it one day I went to an ourdoor range that didn't allow multiple projectile ammunition. But I never got around to beginning to put a good number of rounds through the thing until I looked for the cheapest 12ga ammo I could find. I'm not sure off the top of my head what Remington Express 12 pellet 12ga 00 buckshot costs, but it was way too close to a buck a round for my taste in target ammo prices.

So that $3 on a 20 round box of #8 12ga shot was probably some of the best $3 I've spent. Still have a couple more boxes, and I'm sure it won't be the last. And it was FUN. Blew a target through the cardboard backer.

I was also concerned about hitting other people's targets in lanes next to me, given the amount of spread I noticed. But they were friendly, and I said if they noticed me hitting their targets at all, let me know, and I checked later, and there were no #8 shot holes in their backers. So I'll definately be doing this again.

Oh, I did fire a couple rounds of the 00 buckshot I keep in my shotgun. It kicked, but was definately manageable.

So I'd like to repeat what I'm sure has been said here many times: Take the thing to the range !!

Dave McC · December 2, 2001, 09:43 AM

Good job, Darxus. Those little holes way off from the big one are called flyers, they're not part of the pattern, tho are part of the load, naturally.

Your spreads seem a bit extreme. Check your muzzle for damage, and see if there's anything in the bbl(like rust) that might be opening them up.

labgrade · December 2, 2001, 06:58 PM

Something not yet brought up - is that ammo capacity usable?

Although I'd agree to "more is better," in all actuality, how many times will you be able to fire if your "visitor" is only 20' away?

Most I've heard, within 20', a person can be on top of you in 1-1/2 seconds. You'll either stop him, or not & very doubtful 30 rounds will make any difference than would 5.

Even with multiple intruders, I don't see a prolonged gunfight as very realistic.

I recall an old statistic re average LEO engagements - 1.5 shots at under 7' (?).

Sure. Not a HD scenario, but something to consider.

BTW, give me an 870 12 - or 20

Darxus · December 3, 2001, 09:04 PM

The 9 pellet target has 9 holes, but one appears to be from the cup. I found the target I shot with 12 pellet 00 buck - it has 13 holes, including one from the cup. The holes from the pellets are in a group just under 5" - at 10 yards. This shotgun is in good shape. It's had no more than 30 rounds through it total, I've had it for about a year, and I think I take good care of it. Certainly no rust. I did just go look down the barrel, and it looked fine.

Jody Hudson · December 4, 2001, 12:37 AM

Your pattern with the buck shot is far wider than what I've gotten. Is your barell rifled by chance?

Darxus · December 5, 2001, 05:11 AM

Jody,

Nope. Mossberg 590 (specifically a #50665) - 20" smoothbore, no choke.

BIGSLOWHEAVY · December 5, 2001, 03:48 PM

OK, this discussion has affected me in the wrong way so feel free to slap me around if I get a little to out of line. First off I can't imagine a close quarters HD situation where my trusty 500 loaded up with 00 bucks wouldn't be suffice. Second, If I lived in a state where there was even a remote possibility that I might have to face a jury after killing a BG who broke into my house wearing body armor, I'd move ASAP. And another thing, I realize that a 12guage or an AK fired indoors has got to hurt those sunglasses holders, but do you really think that, after being awaken by a BG breakin in, you are going to think of ear protection? Ok, sorry. Hey I said it affected me in a weird way! So here's the solution. Go out and get one of those fruity little 12ga/.308 over under numbers. When the body armor wearin BG from hell breaks in use the 12ga first to get his attention then take aim with the .308. If that doesn't do the trick, give him both barrels. If that doesn't work then lay down the gun and call him SIR! Seriously though, personally I'd go with the SG. However, I would walk though the house in my undies(uh sorry about the visual) with both weapons to see which I could better maneuver with in the close confines of mi casa. Sorry guys, I'll get back in my hole now.

Take care,
Marc

Dave McC · December 6, 2001, 06:33 AM

Marc, you're right on the money about a walk through. Bet most of the folks reading this have never done one.

November 29, 2001, 04:44 PM	#28
JamesA Member Join Date: November 25, 2001 Posts: 89	Shotgun....You bet, I'd rely on my shotgun as the altimate home defence weapon. Infact maybe the most deadly firearm at close range...If you dont want that ole mossberg 590....I'll take it..I have a moss.590 and love it... __________________ Lead, follow or get the hell out of my way "Rangers Rule"

December 2, 2001, 02:57 AM	#29
Darxus Member Join Date: November 14, 2001 Posts: 16	Took the 590 to the range. 9 pellet 00 buckshot had a 8" pattern at 10 yards. That was a lot wider than I expected given what I read in this thread about shot not spreading much. Even at 5 yards, that comes out to a 4" spread. (20" 12ga) What shocked me more was the #8 shot that I got 60 rounds of because it was the cheapest at the shop ($3 per 20). The first shot I fired, at maybe 5-7 yards, I pulled the target back, noticing the one big hole, maybe 1" in diameter. From what I'd read here, that's about what I expected it to do. One big hole. Then I noticed the entire (8.5"x11") target was completely covered with tiny holes. Looking at the cardboard backer, I noticed the pattern was maybe 2 feed wide. Definately at least a foot and a half. I am ashamed to say that was the first day I ever fired shot out of my shotgun. It was the first gun I got, and I've spent a good bit of time at various ranges. I fired maybe half a dozen slugs through it one day I went to an ourdoor range that didn't allow multiple projectile ammunition. But I never got around to beginning to put a good number of rounds through the thing until I looked for the cheapest 12ga ammo I could find. I'm not sure off the top of my head what Remington Express 12 pellet 12ga 00 buckshot costs, but it was way too close to a buck a round for my taste in target ammo prices. So that $3 on a 20 round box of #8 12ga shot was probably some of the best $3 I've spent. Still have a couple more boxes, and I'm sure it won't be the last. And it was FUN. Blew a target through the cardboard backer. I was also concerned about hitting other people's targets in lanes next to me, given the amount of spread I noticed. But they were friendly, and I said if they noticed me hitting their targets at all, let me know, and I checked later, and there were no #8 shot holes in their backers. So I'll definately be doing this again. Oh, I did fire a couple rounds of the 00 buckshot I keep in my shotgun. It kicked, but was definately manageable. So I'd like to repeat what I'm sure has been said here many times: Take the thing to the range !!

December 4, 2001, 12:37 AM	#33
Jody Hudson Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2000 Location: Near Rehoboth Beach Delaware Posts: 1,140	Your pattern with the buck shot is far wider than what I've gotten. Is your barell rifled by chance? __________________ We help people relocate to Rehoboth Beach Delaware. Our Site: www.Kate-Jody.com

November 22, 2001, 12:36 AM	#26
Jeffet Member Join Date: November 12, 2001 Posts: 17	As mentioned earlier, I wouldn't underestimate the civil-suit repercussions of a scumbag lawyer holding up your AK ("Osama's favorite") in front of a jury versus holding up "Grampa's bird gun"...if indeed, it goes that far. Unless you live near Ted Kazinski's (sp?) cabin, I don't see where you can NOT be concerned about overpenetration...unless of course you can catch the intruder between your muzzle and your mother-in-law (in which case forget the AK, pick up the .300 Magnum)... Jeffet

November 25, 2001, 12:12 AM	#27
Dave3006 Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2000 Location: Lake Forest, CA USA Posts: 493	If someone is in your house at arms reach, the name of the game is putting them down FAST. Let the word FAST burn into your soul. If he lives for one second after you shoot him, he lives long enough to kill you before you die. The shotgun puts people down faster than ANY other weapon. Period. It is not perfect. But, it is the best. If he has armor, shoot him in the head. AKs and ARs handle better and have more capacity. But, they do not put people down as FAST. Every defensive scenario has one thing that is the most important. Home defense is FAST incapacitation. In war on the open battlefield, this is not as important. Here, it is.

December 2, 2001, 09:43 AM	#30
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Good job, Darxus. Those little holes way off from the big one are called flyers, they're not part of the pattern, tho are part of the load, naturally. Your spreads seem a bit extreme. Check your muzzle for damage, and see if there's anything in the bbl(like rust) that might be opening them up.

December 2, 2001, 06:58 PM	#31
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	Something not yet brought up - is that ammo capacity usable? Although I'd agree to "more is better," in all actuality, how many times will you be able to fire if your "visitor" is only 20' away? Most I've heard, within 20', a person can be on top of you in 1-1/2 seconds. You'll either stop him, or not & very doubtful 30 rounds will make any difference than would 5. Even with multiple intruders, I don't see a prolonged gunfight as very realistic. I recall an old statistic re average LEO engagements - 1.5 shots at under 7' (?). Sure. Not a HD scenario, but something to consider. BTW, give me an 870 12 - or 20

December 3, 2001, 09:04 PM	#32
Darxus Member Join Date: November 14, 2001 Posts: 16	The 9 pellet target has 9 holes, but one appears to be from the cup. I found the target I shot with 12 pellet 00 buck - it has 13 holes, including one from the cup. The holes from the pellets are in a group just under 5" - at 10 yards. This shotgun is in good shape. It's had no more than 30 rounds through it total, I've had it for about a year, and I think I take good care of it. Certainly no rust. I did just go look down the barrel, and it looked fine.

December 5, 2001, 05:11 AM	#34
Darxus Member Join Date: November 14, 2001 Posts: 16	Jody, Nope. Mossberg 590 (specifically a #50665) - 20" smoothbore, no choke.

December 5, 2001, 03:48 PM	#35
BIGSLOWHEAVY Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2001 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 151	OK, this discussion has affected me in the wrong way so feel free to slap me around if I get a little to out of line. First off I can't imagine a close quarters HD situation where my trusty 500 loaded up with 00 bucks wouldn't be suffice. Second, If I lived in a state where there was even a remote possibility that I might have to face a jury after killing a BG who broke into my house wearing body armor, I'd move ASAP. And another thing, I realize that a 12guage or an AK fired indoors has got to hurt those sunglasses holders, but do you really think that, after being awaken by a BG breakin in, you are going to think of ear protection? Ok, sorry. Hey I said it affected me in a weird way! So here's the solution. Go out and get one of those fruity little 12ga/.308 over under numbers. When the body armor wearin BG from hell breaks in use the 12ga first to get his attention then take aim with the .308. If that doesn't do the trick, give him both barrels. If that doesn't work then lay down the gun and call him SIR! Seriously though, personally I'd go with the SG. However, I would walk though the house in my undies(uh sorry about the visual) with both weapons to see which I could better maneuver with in the close confines of mi casa. Sorry guys, I'll get back in my hole now. Take care, Marc

December 6, 2001, 06:33 AM	#36
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Marc, you're right on the money about a walk through. Bet most of the folks reading this have never done one.