Another pros and cons thread: Red dot v. bead on HD pump shotgun

[ezmiraldo]

Yet, another decision I'm torn about. I'm considering switching bead on my Mossberg 500 for Aimpoint Micro (let's leave out discussion of price, because, yeah, that thing is ridiculously expensive -- can get 2 mossbeg 500 for one aimpoint micro). I'm talking about home defense only (sorry forgot to specify this in original post). Here're my preliminary thoughts on pluses and minuses of stock bead v. red-dot:

red dot
+ allows putting stock lower into chest muscle area (and away from collar bone area) when aiming -- which helps mitigate recoil
+ higher cheek riser (that one would need to compensate for the elevated sights) prevents thumb of rear hand from hitting the face/glasses during recoil (I use the ugly but extremely functional magpul sga stock)
+ aiming is faster
+ can keep both eyes open when aiming/firing
- need to compensate for the height of the red dot (hits will be 1-2 inches lower than point of aim) -- especially problematic when shooting behind barriers, since shot can hit barrier and not the threat
- downsides of all optics (hard recoil can shift point of aim; bolts can loosen up; battery can die; glass can break; added bulk/weight; glass produces reflection, which might give away one's position; etc. etc.)

stock bead
+ very sturdy
+ no need to compensate for the height of red dot over bore
+ no need to replace batteries (even when batteries last 5 years)

What's your opinion (if price is not an issue)?

[4thPoint]

I have a micro red dot on my Mossberg semi (SPX), the red dot sits right atop the front sight so I don't think I lose even a microsecond lining things up once my head hits the cheekpiece. I could easily be wrong as I have not measured it, but I know that at the very least I don't lose anything moving from sunlight to a dim room and shooting.

I suspect that beads work very well, for hunting at least. Not many ducks or geese migrate during the night.

[FITASC]

Nothing but a simple bead is all that is necessary when pointing a shotgun at a bad guy.

[Doyle]

It sounds like this 500 you are talking about is a HD shotgun. If that is correct then I'd say go for the Aimpoint if you want. However, if that shotgun gets used as a game-getter then I'd say pass. The only place in the field that a red dot on a shotgun is actually a help instead of a hinderance is on a turkey shotgun.

[Bake]

Whats the target???

[mxsailor803]

I see no use for me to have a red dot on a HD shotgun. Personally I prefer a fiber optic bead or just some glow paint on the factory bead. Its one of those things that to me it makes no sense in complicating a simple solution.

[idek]

I'd stick with a bead as well.

I don't know if I agree with the "pros" about a red dot being faster, and you can/should use a bead with both eyes open too.

[FITASC]

How is looking at a red dot faster for target acquisition than using your own 2 eyes?
K.I.S.S. is needed here

[Snyper]

I'd put a Tritium night sight on the front and not have to worry about dead batteries or other malfunctions for the next 15 years.

There will be no difference in target aquisition times nor accuracy fo HD purposes

[Waspinator]

You know, I came across an interesting sight the other day while surfing the web. I thought it was a pretty cool design and it might fit your needs.

It is called See All Open Sight . It uses no batteries.. Kind of like a red dot, but not really. It looks pretty robust.

Here is the website: https://seeallopensight.com/

Here is a video of a guy reviewing it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_-GPNTxiBo

[Pahoo]

- downsides of all optics (hard recoil can shift point of aim; bolts can loosen up; battery can die; glass can break; added bulk/weight; glass produces reflection, which might give away one's position; etc. etc.)

WOW !!
Looks like you worked hard to come up with these negatives, all of which are minor or non-existent. Of the many RedDot types, I have only had one major problem and that was loosing the internal ground connection. Most folks don't like them because they have never taken the time to work with them. In fact, most of the problems are self-inflicted. .....

How about;
Aiming in the dark, with a bead, is non-existing. You learn to point in a general direction and hope you did well.

Aiming in the dark with a RedDot, Allows you to superimpose the dot over the target and you know the target is yours.

How is looking at a red dot faster for target acquisition than using your own 2 eyes?

There is nothing faster and more natural than a RedDot types.

I once talked a deer hunter into letting me install a RedDot on his slug-gun. That first year, the rest of the party scoffed at it and he took a buck at 80yds. and hit where he was touching. Do that with a bead. One guy said it was plain luck and he may have been right. ....

Be Safe !!!

[FITASC]

If you are shooting at bad guys at 80 yards, you're going to jail. The OP is talking about HD use - more like a few yards at most. the added weight and bulk of a Red Dot at HD distances is a waste of money and can throw any semblance of balance or pointability off. At HD distances, it is simply not needed. Buy some ammo and take a lesson with that money instead.

[Virginian]

I see no use for a red dot for HD, and I have a red dot sight (Burris) and use it for almost everything, including wingshooting. Something else to have to worry about in an emergency, and hope you remembered to turn it off and not kill the battery the last time.

[Snyper]

How about;
Aiming in the dark, with a bead, is non-existing. You learn to point in a general direction and hope you did well.

Not if it's a Tritium bead

Most folks don't like them because they have never taken the time to work with them. In fact, most of the problems are self-inflicted. .....

Which means there will be problems, which is not acceptable for an designated HD weapon

Don't assume that because some aren't suggesting them for this use that they have no experience in using them

[FITASC]

How about;
Aiming in the dark, with a bead, is non-existing. You learn to point in a general direction and hope you did well.
Not if it's a Tritium bead

If you can't see your bead, then you can't see the bad guy, so how is a glow sight gonna help?

[Niantician]

Seems like the pros in the top tier competitions are all still using beads. I love red dots for 25-100yrd shots. But anything closer I would rather have a bead.

[Snyper]

If you can't see your bead, then you can't see the bad guy, so how is a glow sight gonna help?

There are many situations where you can identify and see your target but not be able to clearly see your sights

Not everything takes place in total darkness

If it did, the red dot sight wouldn't offer any advantage either

Let's stick to realistic scenarios

No one should be firing blindly into the darkness

[Moomooboo]

Originally Posted by Snyper

There are many situations where you can identify and see your target but not be able to clearly see your sights

Not everything takes place in total darkness

If it did, the red dot sight wouldn't offer any advantage either

Let's stick to realistic scenarios

No one should be firing blindly into the darkness

Youll always be able to see your bead or know where your dang shotgun is pointed if you can identify the person. Lets be real.

[B.L.E.]

red dot
+ allows putting stock lower into chest muscle area (and away from collar bone area) when aiming -- which helps mitigate recoil
+ higher cheek riser (that one would need to compensate for the elevated sights) prevents thumb of rear hand from hitting the face/glasses during recoil (I use the ugly but extremely functional magpul sga stock)
+ aiming is faster
+ can keep both eyes open when aiming/firing

You can, actually should, keep both eyes open with a bead also. The first thing most wing shooting coaches will tell you is to keep both eyes open when shooting.

[Blindstitch]

I imagine shooting a bad guy in the dark is the same as birds on the fly. Look at the bad guy, shoot the bad guy. No use for special gadgets.

Whoever suggested the K.I.S.S method above is right on track. Leave it bead.

[ezmiraldo]

I have zero issues shooting w. both eyes open when using pistol with regular sights. And, I can do this fast. However, my shotgun bead makes this extremely difficult (next to impossible, when switching shoulders and firing from the left side, and then switching again back and forth). Perhaps my bead is crappy. Tiny bolts on the receiver that protect the threads of the rail bolt holes are getting in the way, for one thing. Also, I have to lower my head way down to see the sights, which is uncomfortable, reduces my field of view and makes shooting w. prescription glasses difficult. Do you guys experience any of these issues? Some suggest bringing the stock of the gun up (instead of lowering the head down) -- I don't like that idea because then only part of gun stock is in contact with the body, and the main contact occurs with the color bone. This, imo, isn't an optimal recoil-mitigation approach... Having taken professional classes and spending lots of time dry and live firing, it's still not very easy to aim fast and aim accurately even within the 30 feet home defense distance (it is doable to take a head shot w. a slug from that distance, but I want it to be easier/faster).

I also think that Aimpoint Micro follows the KISS principle: You can leave it on for 5 years without changing batteries (change 'em when new president is elected, and you'll be fine); it is very compact, light, and sturdy -- so shouldn't break or get in the way much, if at all. It ain't as KISSish as the bead, but it's pretty darn close, imo

[Moomooboo]

Originally Posted by ezmiraldo

I have zero issues shooting w. both eyes open when using pistol with regular sights. And, I can do this fast. However, my shotgun bead makes this extremely difficult (next to impossible, when switching shoulders and firing from the left side, and then switching again back and forth). Perhaps my bead is crappy. Tiny bolts on the receiver that protect the threads of the rail bolt holes are getting in the way, for one thing. Also, I have to lower my head way down to see the sights, which is uncomfortable, reduces my field of view and makes shooting w. prescription glasses difficult. Having taken professional classes and spending lots of time dry and live firing, it's still not very easy to aim fast and aim accurately even within the 30 feet home defense distance (it is doable to take a head shot w. a slug from that distance, but I want it to be easier/faster).

I also think that Aimpoint Micro follows the KISS principle: You can leave it on for 5 years without changing batteries (change 'em when new president is elected, and you'll be fine); it is very compact, light, and sturdy -- so shouldn't break or get in the way much, if at all. It ain't as KISSish as the bead, but it's pretty darn close, imo

Why would you shoulder your gun to opposite sides quickly in HD situation? Its a shotgun guys. You dont need pinpoiny accuracy in home defense unless you live in a mansion.

[4thPoint]

If you can't see your bead, then you can't see the bad guy, so how is a glow sight gonna help?

I've conducted enough night ops in the military to know that's not even remotely true. The loss of vision acuity in darkness is gradual, starting with losing fine detail (sights, beads, buttons, etc.) before you will lose the ability to distinguish larger shapes.

Why would you shoulder your gun to opposite sides quickly in HD situation? Its a shotgun guys. You dont need pinpoiny accuracy in home defense unless you live in a mansion.

I dunno, but maybe because with my favored load the pattern is a whopping 5" diameter circle at 75 feet?
A good possibility exists that the pattern would be somewhat smaller at 30'; the longest single sight line in my house.
As for shouldering to opposite sides, I wonder if it may not be because hanging both shoulders out in the hallway instead of just one might not increase the chances of getting shot.

[Pahoo]

Not if it's a Tritium bead

Well, that was not listed by the OP as an option. Personally, I would prefer tritium to a RedDot or bead. .....

It was obvious from the start, that the OP leaning toward the RedDot and just needed some input. As usual, I try to address the OP's question and concerns and not Hi-Jack a post or be prejudice in my response. Personally, I would not mount a RedDot on a HD shotgun but I would also not excluded as anyone's option. ....

Which means there will be problems, which is not acceptable for an designated HD weapon

I suppose if a person has trouble learning how to use high-tech equipment then he should work with simpler methods. Of course it takes time to learn how to properly utilize a RedDot. But give your brain time to program it's use. As in most things, comes down to a matter of trust. .....

Be Safe !!!

[idek]

I have zero issues shooting w. both eyes open when using pistol with regular sights. And, I can do this fast. However, my shotgun bead makes this extremely difficult (next to impossible, when switching shoulders and firing from the left side, and then switching again back and forth). Perhaps my bead is crappy. Tiny bolts on the receiver that protect the threads of the rail bolt holes are getting in the way, for one thing. Also, I have to lower my head way down to see the sights, which is uncomfortable, reduces my field of view and makes shooting w. prescription glasses difficult. Do you guys experience any of these issues? Some suggest bringing the stock of the gun up (instead of lowering the head down) -- I don't like that idea because then only part of gun stock is in contact with the body, and the main contact occurs with the color bone. This, imo, isn't an optimal recoil-mitigation approach... Having taken professional classes and spending lots of time dry and live firing, it's still not very easy to aim fast and aim accurately even within the 30 feet home defense distance (it is doable to take a head shot w. a slug from that distance, but I want it to be easier/faster).

I also think that Aimpoint Micro follows the KISS principle: You can leave it on for 5 years without changing batteries (change 'em when new president is elected, and you'll be fine); it is very compact, light, and sturdy -- so shouldn't break or get in the way much, if at all. It ain't as KISSish as the bead, but it's pretty darn close, imo

Seems to me that you already know what you want and are simply seeing if others support it. If that's the setup you want, go for it.