A "Helping the Cops" Scenario ...

[Mr. James]

What a horrible story. If the subject was, in fact, merely at that range to shoot clays or targets, as opposed to culling the herd, then I really cannot comprehend why the officers would choose to confront him then and there. If the subject's immediate arrest was that urgent a goal, would it not make sense to at least wait for the man to finish his range session and pack up his weapons? Something isn't quite making sense, and I suspect it might be as simple as missing information on the circumstances.

To the original post, I will shoot the subject until either (a) he is no longer a threat to the downed officers, other range patrons, or me; or (b) he takes me out first.

St. Michael the Archangel, patron saint of police officers, pray for them.

[David Armstrong]

I'm going to present this from a different perspective. First, the guy who just shot the cops probably isn't much of a threat to you, if any. He wasn't a threat to you before, and he more than likely just wants to get away from there. By engaging him you may get yourself and others killed. I notice that everyone here has assumed they will instantly kill the BG, he will not get to shoot back, etc. If he shoots back and a hostage/stand off situation begins, it is going to delay medical assistance getting to the officers that were just shot. Odds are the officers are still alive, and for me that is the most important thing at this point, getting help for the injured officers.

[Brian Pfleuger]

David,

You and I generally agree, in principle, on these issues... but not this time. I can't believe that a guy who just shot 2 cops is going to let me just stand there and watch. He obviously knows I'm there, he's not going to want witnesses.

I'm not assuming that he won't shoot back, or that I'll even win, it's just that I think there are risks worth taking and this is one of them. If he wins then he leaves anyway, if he loses then I'm still there to help the cops. The rest of the good guys would already be on their way, I'd have called 911 as soon as the shooting started, probably as soon as the confrontation started. If I'm at the range then I've got several hundred rounds and probably several guns with me. It won't become a hostage situation. He either wins by killing me, dies or escapes.

[hogdogs]

In this case the BG fired with a previously concealed firearm after being tazed in the parking lot. Not on the firing line (no pun intended). He immediately jumped in his truck and headed out. Given the chance I would have still went off on him even if all I had was 7 1/2 in my pump gun. Come on big boy, get out and play cowboys and idiots with me or just have more identifiable damage to the truck... Then I would turn and try to render first aid if there were room for me as the range was pretty busy on such a nice saturday mid afternoon.
Brent

[markj]

The Daily News reported that Cartwright had been arrested in November on a charge of domestic battery against his wife, and that the charge was still pending.

Iowa is trying to get a law passed that if you are arrested for DV they confiscate all your weapons, if not convicted you will get them back, if convicted they keep them.

In this situation with the BG shooting 2 cops and leaving I would try to aid the LEOs as best I could. Let the BG run, they will catch him soon, just as they did in real life.

Was Rambo on TV lately or something?

[Brian Pfleuger]

Was Rambo on TV lately or something?

Coming to the assistance of those who need it is not always "Rambo".

There are actual situations wherein a person might actually help another person and in so doing use deadly force. Sure, there are "vigilante" types and plenty of people who've played to much Counter Strike but simply saying that you'd shoot a guy that just shot 2 cops in front of you is hardly "Rambo".

[David Armstrong]

You and I generally agree, in principle, on these issues... but not this time. I can't believe that a guy who just shot 2 cops is going to let me just stand there and watch. He obviously knows I'm there, he's not going to want witnesses.

He's at a gun range/sportsmens club. There are multiple witnesses, more than likely. Most folks that shoot cops do so to avoid the cops taking them to jail, and generally they want to get away from the area as quickly as possible. It is doubtful he cares much about you being a witness.

It won't become a hostage situation. He either wins by killing me, dies or escapes.

That's an assumption you can't make. It's a shooting range. Most ranges I've been at provide a fair amount of cover. You start shooting at him, he starts shooting back at you, it is easily a hostage/barricaded suspect situation. So while the friendly LEOS, you, and the BG all swap bullets at each other, the nice guys on the ambulance have to sit back and wait for it all to end. And during all this the injured officers are busy bleeding out.

[Brian Pfleuger]

He's at a gun range/sportsmens club. There are multiple witnesses, more than likely.

I suppose that we're both making assumptions on that one. Most ranges in my area, 90% of the time I'm alone. I was assuming that I'm alone.

Now, if I'm not alone, well, I guess I have to think about that. There very well may be others who would also engage, giving us a clear advantage. There are certainly others who will make sure 911 is called. I don't know, right now I'm thinking that not being alone might make me MORE likely to try to stop the guy.

If it's outdoors then it would be awfully hard for anybody to continue the fight when the reinforcements arrive, not that I would imagine that the fight could go on that long, at least at the ranges I frequent. There might be plenty of concealment, but there's virtually no cover. Somebody is going down pretty quick, I would guess. For instance, the biggest range in this area amounts to a main building, which is a good 75 yards across open ground from the line, and the "shooting house" which is a plywood box with one side and the front open and some benches inside.

This happened in the parking lot apparently. That being the case, it's unlikely that most anyone (at our local ranges) would even know it went down until the guy was long gone. They'd have to hear the shots and wonder why people were shooting in the parking lot and go investigate.


Of course, all of this is really the problem with these questions. There are always literally thousands of little details that we all make assumptions about and all those assumptions are different in each of our minds. None of us can believe that anyone else with a brain can see it differently that we do, failing to realize that they are simply operating on a different sets of assumptions.

[Gbro]

I have to stand in great disbelief that the apprehension of this man was done according to any guidelines. I believe the Intel on this subject must have been disregarded.
This case could have gone south at any location due to the concealed weapon and his occupation skills. The only factor the range might have played was the psychological aspect of separating him for the weapons that were in view.
However,
There are way to many apprehensions made in the wrong places, take the Waco Texas fiasco, the Ruby Ridge fiasco, There are too many times that a little patience would be appropriate.

The two deputies found Cartwright at the shooting range and began trying to arrest him shortly before 1 p.m., but they reported that he was refusing to cooperate with their attempts to handcuff him.

The Daily News reported that Cartwright had been arrested in November on a charge of domestic battery against his wife, and that the charge was still pending. The paper said he had worked as a bouncer at a Fort Walton Beach bar.

[Dubs]

Weird scenario, but consider this:

If you gunned down a man who just shot two cops, do you really think the police would want to arrest you, much less testify against you? They could be upset that you made his death a little too quick...

(operating off the assumption the shot police didn't die... if they did, evidence would provide quick enough)

[KingEdward]

most of us would be lucky to repeat with accuracy what we saw and if the BG flees, all the accurate pertinent info 5 min later to an LEO. In the OP, I was more motivated to help the LEOs and others jumped on stopping the BG. Pretty understandable.

I've had the witness experience twice in the last year and once I did pretty well. The other time was after a nearby home invasion and my recall and details were more general than I would have hoped.

When one starts asking things like, "What color was his shirt?" Dark green or light green? Was he wearing jeans or slacks, sneakers or boots, did he have a beard? What type of vehicle did he leave in? What color, what direction did he drive away in? Did he have any unique identification marks, tatoo, etc.?

Change seeing someone fleeing a crime with being in a shootout with someone and we should all hope to be remotely right with 1/2 of what we say or remember.

Some parents could not tell an LEO right now what color clothes and what shoes / jewelry their kids left the house in this morning. Mine left with a burgandy short sleeve shirt and faded blue jeans and a green wrist band and white and red sneakers. Can't remember if her hair was up in pony tail or down. Think it was down but not 100% Shame on me.

[hogdogs]

The range of note is fully open air. The shooting occurred in the parking lot quite a few yards from hot firing lines. The chance a line shooter would have had time to hear the shots and mentally determine a shoot out was happening and respond was not to high. Pretty low but a few of the shooters on one end of the place may have been able to respond. My level of accuracy is far below Tom Knapp's but I would have done my best if possible.
Brent

[David Armstrong]

I suppose that we're both making assumptions on that one. Most ranges in my area, 90% of the time I'm alone. I was assuming that I'm alone.

Agreed, my assumption was that if you are there, he was there, the cops were there, it was probable that others were there, but that is an assumption.

There might be plenty of concealment, but there's virtually no cover.

There are at least three cars there, which can provide a fair amount of cover. Many ranges have concrete benches, there are full trash cans, etc.

Of course, all of this is really the problem with these questions. There are always literally thousands of little details that we all make assumptions about and all those assumptions are different in each of our minds.

Exactly, and a good catch on your part. Although I will point out that if what you are describing passes as a gun range and sportsman's club in your area, you need to upgrade some!

[SPUSCG]

There are people saying they would not react if murder was commit that close to them?

Hard to believe, seeing the bad guy could probably kill me without aiming at that range, and you can get some good press for gun owners as "gun owner helps police officers"

[Stevie-Ray]

Bottom line for me is that I feel obligated to mount an immediate defense. The rest will sort itself out.

A bit to think about as far as small discrepancies in range design, population, cover areas, etc., (seems all of ours are quite different) but I agree in general with theotherTexasRich's post as far as how I feel.

[Nnobby45]

Please keep in mind that this is all the information you have. You know nothing about any crimes the person may or may not have committed.

Oh, is that all the information I have?! LOL

Well, you'd actually know he just committed two murders (or attempted murders) before your eyes and you'd know that you're a witness. You'd also know that the would be murderer knows everyone is armed. While you're deciding what to do, he's already shown that he's willing to act quickly and decisively.

Trying to decide what one would do makes for amusing reading, because it isn't possible to know how we'd react. If I were a betting sorta guy, I'd bet on the outcome being settled in favor of he who doesn't dither--what ever action he may choose. If you're holding a loaded skeet gun at 10 yds, why not settle it in your favor?

That might be better than news headlines saying "Two Officers shot at skeet range while shooters stand there and watch the killer drive away."

Of course, in Hollywood, you'd yell "Freeze" while you pointed guns at each other and said "put the gun down"--"no, you put your gun down".

[GHF]

There can be NO hesitation as soon as the opportunity/shot is cleared tactically after the Bright Line (see my earlier post on Florida law) has been and remains crossed. As John Bernard Books - John Wayne's character in his last movie The Shootist stated - You Must Be WILLING.

"It isn't always being fast or even accurate that counts, it's being willing. I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, aren't willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull a trigger. I won't."

You can not be looking for wiggle room or a gray area here. The threat exists, and needs to be stopped. Looking for a Third Middle Compromise Solution leads to hesitation, which will lead to you not dealing with your responsibilities in a timely manner. It is you - not the person or persons presenting the threat - that you are responsible for.

Remember, the first shot you make should be the first indication to the shooter that they have an altered situation. In this case, the shooter had been concentrating on the now-shot LEO's, so by firing you are an unexpected problem from an unknown location.

[Tucker 1371]

I say if you are in a position to prevent one or both the LEO's being killed then you should absolutely engage the shooter. More than likely by the time your brain has registered the threat and asessed the situation that will not be possible. In this case I think the best course of action would be to have your self and your weapon in a position in which you can engage in a quarter second or less should the shooter begin to turn your or any one else's way. If he leaves immediately as he did in this situation then let him do so and make your best effort to tend to the wounded officers.

[Rich Miranda]

In this situation with the BG shooting 2 cops and leaving I would try to aid the LEOs as best I could. Let the BG run, they will catch him soon, just as they did in real life.

Was Rambo on TV lately or something?

The OP didn't say ask what we would have done in the same exact situation as recently occurred in real life. He used the phrase "hypothetical senario[sic]."

When I imagined this hypothetical scenario, I imagined him standing over the two officers and then looking up at me, realizing that I'm a witness.

I have taken security officer training many moons ago (though I never did the job). What I was taught is that if the guy shows that he is willing to blow people away for no good reason, then go ahead and take him out.

My question to those who wouldn't shoot in the OP's hypothetical scenario: what happens if he turns the gun on you?

As for me, he is a murderer, cold and callous, and I have a legitimate reason to believe he may kill me next. So I shoot.

[armsmaster270]

I would dump him in a heartbeat then try to aid the officers and get EMT's

[Jim March]

There needs to be a whole new chapter in the cop manual put in, with just one sentence in it: DO NOT CONFRONT A NUTCASE AT A SHOOTING RANGE.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Although I will point out that if what you are describing passes as a gun range and sportsman's club in your area, you need to upgrade some!

You have no idea.... that's the classiest joint around. There are a few more, some even have trap and skeet ranges but that's about as good as it gets.

[ramp_tech]

As much as I'd like to help, unless I was instructed by the LEOs involved in the scenario, I will most likely stay out of it.

There is just too great a liability legally to volunteer in such situation (too many darn lawyers like to sue), however, I would help to retreat the injured officers if possible. (without encountering the BG)

Nevertheless, if the dude starting to shoot at me...that's another story.

[5whiskey]

I read all of the first page of responses, and a couple in the second. Forgive me if I repeat a point that has already been made.

"all that is required for evil to succed is for good men to stand idly by and do nothing"

I'm sure almost everyone here is familiar with that quote. With that quote, I don't think there's any state in the union that would actually convict someone because he engaged a man that just iced two cops. Where I'm from they'd call you a hero. In Cali you would be exonerated but lectured about vigilantism. The bottom line? If I see that, I shoot until bad guy doesn't move. I remove weapon from bad guy and detain him with handcuffs from LEO. Order someone to call 911, and then triage (with help from others) LEOs and bad guy in an effort to save their lives.

I understand ROEs and our duty as armed citizens. We are not LEOs. I know this. It's not our job to go out and seek crimes to stop. I don't suggest that we all walk around like a bunch of cowboys. I refuse, however, to stand idly by and watch a heinous crime take place. ESPECIALLY letting an armed man who just used lethal force on two LEOs get away to potentially harm someone else.

Say what you want. In certain liberal courts this may be viewed as "not wrong but not the best judgement", but anyone with half a brain should be able to look at this situation and do what needs to be done if they are confident in their ability to do it. We don't need to be so paralyzed by legal concerns that we're effectively castrated.




And for the record, I think showing up at a live fire range to arrest a man is absolutely rediculous. Let's see, where is the absolute greatest chance of encountering a man when he is not only armed, but already has his weapon at the ready?

[SwampYankee]

I've been thinking about this scenario all day.

I think that I would be in such complete shock, I would have no idea what to do. I simply would not believe what I had just seen. The following would pop into my head: "Is this a movie no one told me was filming"? "Is this a practical joke"? "Am I high off my ass right now"?

I figure if the guy started heading towards me with his gun drawn I would empty my magazine into him, but I have to say, the shock of the situation would be considerable. I don't usually observe cops being gunned down in front of me.

Maybe if I lived on the Mexican border things would be a little different...