Military Training

[GLP Standard]

^ But it would help a great deal, no?

Leif: I was told that studying Criminal Justice wont help you much, and that most agencies look for a degree in Business more than CJ. Cant see the logic in that, but Im just stating what I heard

[Eghad]

"can understand GLP's sentiments in terms of the current fighting. Wanting to serve your country does not automatically imply that you want to be involved as a grunt in bloody occupation. Currently, signing up for the Army or Marines is like asking to go to Iraq."

I dont support the way the war with Iraq was started... but I would still go if called back to duty. It isnt about serving on your terms. Its about abiding by the oath you took. if he feels strongly about not getting shot about in a war he doesnt support my advice would be to stay out of the military. When you are serving it isnt about you or your feelings. Its about doing your job so that you dont let the guy in the foxhole next to you down or those who depend on you down because of your attitude about the war.
You can have plans and goals but you can alse leave the ME at the door.

[Leif]

ironrice, thank you.

GLP Standard, it may help. However, think about it this way. Say you join some branch of the military "just for the training," as you say. How much of your heart do you really think you're going to put into that job, since all you're really doing is marking time until you can get out and use the training? With that in mind, how good of a job do you think that you will do? With that in mind, how good do you think that your training experience will be during service, or your references afterwards? Hopefully you see where I am going with this.

Why not enroll at a college, try to get a job with whatever public safety/campus police unit they have there (virtually every college possessing a criminal justice program is going to have one), and gain experience more directly in line with what your actual goals are, while at the same time not signing away four or five years of your life to a "harsh master" dedicated to goals with which you do not agree on principle?

I just saw your note about business. So study business then. But do something that you can actually put your heart into rather than something you're going to hate and resent, because if you're like most people, you won't do it well.

[HangFire83]

GLP check this out.

http://www.lcc.edu/publicservice/cri...olice_academy/

Not sure if the same goes for your neck of the woods just wanted to give you a link to show you that military exp. is not required. Good luck. I plan on getting started with the classes this fall and have already really buckled down on the physical training too.

[Trapp]

As for PS's in the CG being the first to be sent to Iraq to guard ports........Iraq is surrounded by 99% land! I figured the Coast Guard was designed to guard the United States Coast from attacks from other countries, and that Port Security Specialists were put in place to guard ports and harbors, and inspect ships in major US ports like New York City, Miami, Los Angeles, etc...

Well, don't take from me. I am only on my 7th year in the CG....
PS's are not what you think they are. I am a mechanic, and do more LE than most of them (remember they are reservists: one weekend a month 2 months a year....unless you get activated and sent to Irag.), Including security boardings on ships. There is no LE specific job in the CG. If you join the CG with that attitude you won't do well. You have to be a jack of all trades.

Like I said I am a mechanic. I drive boats, I do LE, I work on diesels, outboards, ACnR, building work.....

It ain't a cake walk and you don't do one job.

[Mike40-11]

Well GLP, if you would read some of the previous posts you would know that the CG is ALREADY in Iraq and have been since the beginning. And have in fact suffered casualties.

I don't think most of the posts have been flames. What people are saying is it doesn't sound like you are well suited to the military life. That's not abuse, that's an honest opinion.

I want to join for the training, real life experience, and to help me get where I want to be.

That's great and that's a legitimate reason. However, it is not enough. You join the military to serve. Along the way you get a lot of benefits but they are a result of military service, not the reason for it.

The military exists to defend the country and fight and win this nation's wars. If you don't want to do that, you don't have to. If you want no part of the primary purpose of the military I would recommend that you do not join. Once you do, you lose the ability to decide how you should be employed.

[leadcounsel]

I didn't read all of the responses, so forgive me if I'm repeating other posters.

First, if you are a cop or in ANY branch of the military you're life is going to be put in jeapordy frequently and likely often for things you don't personally care about.

And, you do sound like someone from a very pampered background. You should really reconsider your approach and attitude or consider a different career.

If you're not willing to put your life on the line on a daily basis for things you may not personally care about, law enforcement and the military aren't the right careers for you.

[pickpocket]

Edited: Double Post

[pickpocket]

Why am I getting flamed for 1 simple comment?

I'll give you ONE guess...

Well, ill be calling the C/O about it, and we'll see what they say.

They won't care.

Second, when I said I dont want to die for something I dont agree with in the first place, I was referring to War. I wasnt referring to Bush, I wasnt referring to Politics, and I wasnt referring to this country. I think War is pointless and stupid. Im a firm believer that it is 100% unnecessary, and that the World would be a better place without it. So why should I go and possibly get killed for something that I dont even agree with?

And yet you are so cavalier about enjoying the pay, benefits, and status that are part and parcel of military life - of course without accepting any of the risk that comes with it.
You wish to enjoy the freedoms and opportunities that have been made possible by those wars you don't believe in, but don't even have the fortitude to be thankful that men better than you bled their last drop of blood on foriegn soil so that you don't have to speak German, Japanese, French, or bow down to a British Queen.

Joining the Police Force and joining the Military are 2 completely different things. I have no problem risking my life. I didnt mean to come off that way, but unfortunately, thats how some of you took it. I need to get a nice easy job like a Librarian? Come on now.... thats the most ignorant thing Ive ever heard.

The question wasn't whether you would feel comfortable risking your life - because you obviously THINK that you're capable. The issue is whether or not the people you would serve with, who would DEPEND on you, would have to worry about whether or not you BELIEVED in a cause before risking your life for THEM. From your original comments, this is a concept you don't understand, or you would have kept your comments about the Iraq war out of it.

I DO NOT want to join the Military to be a slave to this country, and get killed for a government that doesnt give a **** about me anyway. If you guys cant understand that, then thats fine. I didnt know I was obligated to fight for my country. It is a free country, meaning I should be able to live my life how I want to. I like my life. I dont want it to end at the age of 21 over something so ignorant as War.

Just in case you didn't realize, the Coast Guard is MILITARY. Oh - and it REQUIRES a COMMITMENT. Once that commitment is made, you forfiet the right to determine the manner in which your obligations are fulfilled.

Now that we got all that out of the way, lets talk about the Job I want in the Coast Guard, since everything else is going nowhere. Does anyone know anything about it? Port Security Specialist? Whats that about? Whats involved? What are the requirements? Is it any harder than any other job in the Coast Guard to get?

You have more than likely alienated every person who has served in uniform. Good luck, though. You either need to learn a little more about life, or learn to keep some things to yourself. Maybe both, eh?

The politics of war is left to the politicians and the armchair quaterbacks. Those who have bled for their country know what war is really about - the man to your left and right. If you don't understand that, then you don't rate... go sit in your armchair.

[HangFire83]

Ouch. I felt that slap up here in Michigan.

[Chaingunner]

I'll tell ya what: I'm a Gunner's Mate, petty officer 3rd class in the Navy (active duty). I've been in for two and a half years. However, i'm not supremely happy sitting in ports all the time; I want to deploy, but my ship is like a black hole of doom from which there is no escape. Because of this, when my enlistment runs out, I'm going to take advantage of Blue to Green and go Army. Hooah.

That being said, the Navy is the only branch that will guarantee you a job - everyone I know who went to a recruiter and was told "the navy offers you THIS" got whatever it was they were offered, unless they got their contract changed prior to going to boot camp. I was offered Gunner's Mate "A" school...eight months later I was in boot, and two months after that, I was in GM "A" school. I hear the other branches are PRETTY good at getting you what you want, but I know of people who've been screwed over, so make sure you read the fine print before you sign ANYTHING.

Edit: as for the conversation currently at hand:

If you're not willing to voluntarily subject yourself to the possible violence of unfriendly strangers, then you have no business in the military.

I don't intend that as a slam, I'm only pointing out a fact. You can NOT join an organization whose main purpose is to enforce the will of it's patron country through acts of controlled violence and then reasonably believe you shouldn't have to fight when called upon.

[atlctyslkr]

Joining the Coast Guard won't keep you out of war. Ask my dad, graduated from the Academy in 1970 and got sent to "The Nam" to serve with the Navy. The CG supports the Navy in times of war. If you don't want to go to war than don't join the military. Maybe you could get lucky like me. I served in the Air Force between the Gulf wars. Thankful for that but I wouldn't have joined if I wasn't serious about the possibility. Too many people join the military for the wrong reasons. Unfortuantely the military can't sell death so they have to sell career opportunities. It's tough for them to get and keep good people. I salute all who have served and all who truly want to.

[44 AMP]

There are some things you need to realize about service in the US Military (any branch). Once you sign your contract, it is mind over matter. They don't mind, and you don't matter.

The tone of your posts tell me you still have a bit of growning up to do. You can do that in the service, but unless you learn the unwritten lessons real quick, it will be painful.

Not believing in war, not wanting to be a slave, etc. are all fine opinions, and as a civilian, you have been able to enjoy your right to your opinion because of the sacrifices of those who have served this nation since before its official founding. My self and may others on this board have willingly made these sacrifices, and we all value even higher the sacrifice of those who will never be here to post their opinion.

Let me give you some well meant advice, and explain a few facts you might not have taken into account. You are considering joining the military to get some training in a field you are interested in. This is fine. You have some opinions about serving and about war, about not wanting to get shot and killed, fine. Understand that once you sign up, your opinions are of NO CONSEQUENCE to the military. You do NOT have the same rights as a civilian. The act of entering into a military service contract suspends several of your constitutional rights, for the duration of your service. The military is legally obligated to abide by the terms of your contract with them. NOTHING MORE.

Your attitude, when you open your mouth, and when you don't, along with the ability you display, will determine in large part, how much beyond the terms of your contract the military will be willing to give you, or allow you the chance to earn.

RISK is a condition of employment. It goes with putting on the uniform, and taking the oath. Degree of risk is something you have to weigh for yourself, BEFORE you join. Risk from combat, risk from hazardous job situations, and even risk from your "coworkers". Some of the best human beings walking the earth today are, or have worn our uniforms. Some of the people wearing our uniforms are near the other end of the spectrum. Most are somewhere inbetween. Just people. People with justifiable pride in who they are, and in what they do.

Statements like some of those in your posts will be understood by some, but others will just be infuriated. Belittling someone with pride in their service, whether intentional or not is a bad idea. Some people are just not as tolerant as others.

If you are serious about the military, you need to go into this with your eyes open. You are clearly young, with many things to learn. I hope you don't have to learn them all the hard way.

You can learn alot from the people on this board, it helps to approach them the right way.

[Powderman]

I can't see risking my life, and more than likely getting shot and killed over something I dont agree with in the first place.

First of all, a qualifier or two:

I am a Reserve Officer. This simply means that I do the same thing that full time officers do, part time, without pay. I have been doing this now for almost 10 years.

If you decide to go into law enforcement, you had better be prepared to risk your life. Every day, and every hour of the day you are in uniform, or on duty. You HAVE to be prepared, because you do not know if your next traffic stop, or your next knock on someone's door, or even the next person you contact will be the "one"--the one that turns into a fight for your life.

I have arrested people who have manifested their desire to hurt or kill me or my brother and sister officers, simply because we wear the badge.

I have seen both the best and worst that people have to offer each other--and believe me, you would be surprised at some of the terrible things people can do to each other.

Police work is work, and it fits those who sincerely want to make a difference; to be part of the blue line that stands between good people and those who would do those people harm.

Police work is having an arrest for a shoplifting charge, and having two hours of paper work and follow up behind it.

Police work is listening to a woman refer to you as a "pig", in hearing of her children--then responding to a complaint of something that went "thump" in the night, to the SAME woman's house.

Police work is seeing a vehicle flip, right in front of you; running up to the car and having your heart sink as you see an empty baby seat in the car.

Police work is holding the hand of a man who is busted up from an auto accident; sitting there covered in his blood, and telling him that he'll be OK as you see the life dim from his eyes; keeping a smile on your face as you talk to him as he calls for his wife over and over again while a little part of you dies inside.

Police work is facing the man you just contacted--offering to help him on a deserted road--and seeing the look in his eyes and knowing--KNOWING--that he intends to hurt or kill you, and that your actions will determine if you go home that night--or if you will die like a dog on the side of a road, alone.

But police work is also driving down a residential street at 3:00, knowing that the people in their houses can sleep soundly because you are there to stand watch. It's the reason a kid's eyes light up at your uniform and badge; it's the thanks in a mother's eyes when you bring their child back home.

Soldiering is both different and the same. You will be deployed. You will have officers, both commissioned and non-commissioned appointed over you, and you will follow their lawful orders at all times.

If that lawful order is to pick up every cigarette butt in a mile radius, you will procure the appropriate garbage receptacle and proceed to pick.

If that lawful order is to pack up everything you have in the world and to move overseas on a moment's notice, you will do so, and will do so cheerfully.

If that lawful order is to deploy to a combat area to conduct combat operations, such order being issued from the President of the United States, who is your Commander in Chief, you will deploy.

And, if that lawful order involves you utilizing your issued weapon--or any other weapon available to you--to close with and destroy the enemy, by means of fire, maneuver and shock effect, then you WILL do so.

You see, when you enlist, you will raise your right hand and swear an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic, to bear true faith and allegiance, and to obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the officers appointed over you. This oath, you swear or affirm before Almighty God.

Some of us, including some of those who read these messages on this bulletin board, still get chills from seeing or thinking those words. Why? Because we, as current or former soldiers, sailors, Airmen, Marines, or Coast Guardsmen have dedicated our lives to the protection and preservation of this great Nation, at ALL costs, even unto death.

And, there is a whole new generation of fine young men and women, who right now are engaging the enemy in direct combat who have sworn the same oath. They might have personal thoughts about being deployed or fighting. But when the rubber hits the road, these troops put aside their feelings and pick up their weapons.

We--the members of the United States Armed Forces, both current and former, made the decision and served our Nation with honor. The soil in many countries is stained deeply with the blood of the American fighting man, who has paid the terrible price of the freedoms we enjoy today.

Can you be one of us?

WILL you be one of us?

Are you worthy to be one of us?

Only you have the answer. Make your decision.

Yours,

E.C. Tovar Jr.
Reserve Patrol Officer, Puyallup Tribal Police
former Staff Sergeant, (Infantry/Air Defense), US Army

[Bud Helms]

Potentially a good discussion, but not firearms related. Off to L&P.

[steelheart]

GLP:

Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh, but I call 'em like I see 'em.

You are a parasite.

You want the training, pay, insurance, travel, experience, status, respect of your countrymen, G.I. mortgage assistance and educational benefits that come from being a soldier (in any branch of the military) but you do not want to do the job of a soldier.

Stay out of the military - the military does not need parasites. Go to college instead; you can get training there, and you will be surrounded by other parasites who think like you.

Come to think of it, I'm not sorry.

[mogunner]

BTDT: US Navy 1962-1983. Training is what you make it.

[Leif]

Stay out of the military - the military does not need parasites. Go to college instead; you can get training there, and you will be surrounded by other parasites who think like you.

So people who choose college over the military are parasites?

I think the point to be made is not so much that going into the military or going into college are good or bad choices in and of themselves, but that going into them for the wrong reasons represents rather unwise, self-serving decisions and thinking that potentially holds serious repercussions both for the individual in question as well as those with whom they may serve.

[Phetro]

I DO NOT want to join the Marines or the Army, so those are out. I can't see risking my life, and more than likely getting shot and killed over something I dont agree with in the first place. However just to see what people would say, I added those as choices in the poll.

I would go one step further than what some others have said. Don't just forget the armed services. Forget America entirely and move to France--we have too many weak-minded, self-centered people here that are overly concerned with safety as it is!

So people who choose college over the military are parasites?

Unless they are physically or mentally unable to do otherwise: yes. What would you propose to call people that reap the benefit without paying the price?

[steelheart]

So people who choose college over the military are parasites?

Nope - people who think like GLP are parasites.

BTW, I chose both college and the military (USAF, '85-'89); looking back, I would have stayed in - if I had known then what I know now.

[HangFire83]

Phetro:

Unless they are physically or mentally unable to do otherwise: yes. What would you propose to call people that reap the benefit without paying the price?

I would call them parasites. But the questions was

So people who choose college over the military are parasites

Perhaps I misunderstood the way you are phrasing your answer to this question but it looks like you just called everyone who is phisically and mentally fit but chose college a parasite. I chose college but not necessarily over military. I just got caught up in other things and got busy with my life. I was this close to signing my name when I was seventeen but I was still in highschool and my parents said wait another year and I listened to their advise. I still wanted to do it but I got accepted to a really good school and decided to take that route. I would have gladly spilled my blood to protect the freedoms that we have and to defend this country. I also have the utmost respect for those that have, are, and will serve.

[ironrice]

Honestly, I was thinking about how GLP wants join the military for just it's training and it's not entirely his fault for this attitude. When I first read his post, I was like man this guy's priorities are messed up. His loyalties would be only to himself and what he can benifit from the military, like the training. However, if you seen the ads for the military they basically push this selling point. So in a way I do understand where he's coming from, even though I don't agree with it, it's partly the ads that the military puts out. "earn money for college" "Get training for now, get training for later." Sounds familiar? Maybe once he does join he'll realize that there is more to the military than the benifits they can offer. I think most of the noobs that joined the military after 9/11 was to defend this country, that was my main reason but now the military is hurting for enlistments so they are selling the benifits instead of the true reason for serving. On a side note, the Air Force is laying off company grade officers right now. They call it Force Shaping and this happened because they recruited way too many officers after 9/11.

[CobrayCommando]

What would you propose to call people that reap the benefit without paying the price?
__________________

I would call 50 percent taxes the price my man. I am literally spending half of a workday working for the government. Many European countries have compulsory military service, but thats more out of necessity.

[HangFire83]

I would call 50 percent taxes the price my man.

Good point!

[Handy]

I went to college, then the military. Pardon my parasitic nature.