Question: How are Glock 17's carried?

[DPris]

If it strikes something solid, it can fragment.
Who found it?
Denis

[stagpanther]

check out hornady's video at http://www.hornady.com/store/9mm-Lug...tical-Defense/

[armedleo]

As to the "dead is dead" remark that's what my whole dilemma has been all along. What's the motivation to lie - if one is lying - when there's no need. I've been a police detective for the majority of my adult life and liars have their reasons for doing so. But when there's no need to lie, maybe there's no lie at all. And Joe is angry. He's not scared. In fact, he's down right challenging almost daring people (me) to prove him a liar.

This is purely subjective and maybe you guys who are former cops will know this, but Joe is angry and if he's lying it just doesn't seem to serve a purpose. Denis, despite your warning, I did try to get him to change his story; just go with the flow since you're already cleared on the shooting. Nope. That's passing my test of sorts. But the reason? The only motivation here to stick to this one shot only theory is that since Joe alone is being sued in civil rights court for excessive force and wrongful death he simply does not think it fair that he stand alone. I just cannot think of anything else at this point. Again, benefit of the doubt being that he's not a liar.

[Palmetto-Pride]

Ok now this is all starting to come togeather this is not about the justification of the shooting, this all as to do with if Joe was the only one that can be sued for civil damages because he was the only officer supposedly that took the shot or shots, so if you can prove that another officer also fired a round then that other officer will also have to take some of the civil lawsuit heat. Got It!

[DPris]

Unfortunately there's a helluva lot that's not fair about the job.

I can't blame Joe for being angry, that's built-in.

At this point I'd hold off and wait to see how the IA process goes.

Specific findings can be addressed, specific charges or accusations can be defended, as they're presented.
Denis

To add: If I were Joe, I would not be wasting time or money in the meantime on buying car doors & shooting car windows.
I fully understand it's hard to just sit with all this hanging over his head, and the very strong urge to DO something.

Just wait till you have a better picture of what really needs to be done.

[dogtown tom]

armedleo The last entry on the evidence log indicates (several hours after crime scene cleared) "1 live 9mm round, head stamped..." The officers were all carrying the same make cartridges although different calibers. This "live round" is of a different brand. (I refrain from mentioning actual brands.) The live round is troubling to say the least. And so far I find no mention of any testing that may or may not have been done on this live round. Needless to say this puts another gun on-scene.

No, it doesn't.......... it just means that there was an unfired 9mm round recovered.

[armedleo]

Well, yes, strictly speaking. Point well taken.

But I think the totality of circumstances including number of GSWs, officers carrying back up guns that are 9mm, and Joe claiming - no, insisting - he fired once, I think the finding of an odd ball live 9mm round likely goes to a gun. I take Joe at his word (no choice right now and no evidence to the contrary) that he himself does not carry a back up gun in accordance with the agency's prohibition. He's a former marine sgt. and does play by the rules. He's not an angel, but he's a very honest and sincere person. (I know that means nothing in a court of law or to the I A cops.)

No one I know, especially coppers, carry just bullets without a gun. I'm fairly certain bad guys don't. Its not like, Oh, gee, a bullet just fell out of my pocket. This is a shooting scene. This part of Joe's beat, while it borders a sort of run down part of the city I worked in, is not known for shootouts or gunplay.

Based upon what I've gotten from you guys I just am curios to find out what, if any, tests were done on this live round? Was it recently ejected? Was it pristine as if someone just plucked one from a fresh box of ammo and dropped it there? Is there DNA? Fingerprint?

[DPris]

You didn't mention who found it or how it was found.

Considering how it was probably handled, by one or more hands along the way, I would not expect much DNA help.

You didn't say how close to Joe's position it was found, and/or how close to anybody else's position.

Should be possible to place officers AND that cartridge at least approximately in the scene diagram.

We've gone over what you can possibly find on the round, in terms of marks.

If you're trying to prove there was a second shooter on that grassy knoll, that round in & of itself is not going to do that.

It can't prove anything beyond the fact that it was there, and POSSIBLY that it may have been chambered in something, somewhere.

Even IF there were usable DNA traces, those would have to be compared to DNA from all officers present.

IF the lab got a match, the scope of the IA investigation would have to be broadened.

If the lab did not get a match, anybody can claim anything about the round & its significance (or its lack of significance).

Trying to tie it into the size of the hole in the window glass would be problematic, and without a proper foundation laid in court, difficult to introduce.

The circumstances of its discovery could also be a factor in relevance.
As could trying to argue that the presence of the round proves the presence of another here-to-fore unknown pistol.

Curious, yes.
Conclusive, no.
Denis

[armedleo]

Joe's own approximations are that he was 10 -15 feet from the front quarter panel but almost perpendicular to the driver's side door closer to the (front) door hinge.

The description of the found live 9mm round's location upon discovery as per the crime scene tech's report who collected it just says 0000 block of "Elm" Street. That's why I am waiting to see crime scene photos. An anonymous call came in to 911. (It looks like the call came in from a city extension, but that's no certain since the calls are on a rotary line and if one line is busy the call switches to an open city line. The city line when switched then comes up as the if the original call number. I have made a public records request for all 911 calls.) Tech did put an evidence marker down next to the live round and made a notation of that.

[DPris]

Inside the scene?

Anyplace close to any officer?

Half a block away?
Mile away?

Anonymous phonecall?
Denis

[armedleo]

The scene is near an intersection just before the crosswalk. The car, according to new clip, was driving southbound and wound up in the northbound lane closest to the intersection's N E corner. I went there at night and that corner is fairly illuminated by a sodium vapor street lamp. It does throw off a yellow light and, although bright, causes colors to appear in a different hue.

In that same block is where the live round was found. But when the crime scene tech made her report she does not give a precise location like the address of the storefront in which is was found. She just says "found in the northbound lane..." But she does mention an evidence marker with its number. From that I assume she took photos before collecting it. I need those photos.

Anonymous is my description. The caller just reported their find and requested an officer. The cop responded and then requested crime scene and she came out within 20 minutes. But this call came about 8 hours after the scene cleared.

I also do agree with you in that he should let the I A play out. But this I A's outcome may drastically affect the civil rights case that's being filed naming Joe individually as a co-defendant with the police department. I don't remember, although I did do a stint in I A, whether or not the burden is on the officer to affirmatively prove his innocence or provide a defense by way of a counter-argument, or if the burden is on I A to prove guilt.

[DPris]

If that round was found 8 hours after the scene was cleared & opened up, and some distance away, with no complainant info, I can see all sorts of problems in trying to connect it up.
Along with a POSSIBLE (POSSIBLE ONLY!!!!!) deliberate attempt to confuse the situation.
In saying that, I DO NOT accuse any body or any entity.

It remains a waste of energy to be trying to answer charges in advance of what those charges may or may not be, at the end of the IA process.

A reasonable amount of effort in going over evidence & statements, yes.
Ranging far afield & looking for other smoking guns based on a found round removed some distance in time & possibly location and with a questionable origin, no.

Where's Joe's attorney?
He's reviewing everything you're reviewing, right?

If so, he should be prepared to address or refute allegations when the time comes, if any.
Denis

[armedleo]

Yes. Joe's attorney is reviewing all evidence that is to be made part of the I A and, as per policy, the investigation must stick with whatever the evidence speaks to. But please remember that while the chief has the right to be the complainant in the I A - and he's chosen to claim that right and is, in fact, the complainant - there still has been no notification made advising Joe as to what he's being accused of. That's a violation of policy since part of being notified your the subject of an I A, you're also supposed to be advised of the allegation(s) leveled against you. This has not happened. I suppose that's sort of a good thing in that if there is some disciplinary action taken, when appealed it will be brought out to a judge that policy was violated and due process denied Joe.

[DPris]

Fully agree with your last two sentences.

Joe's attorney, seems to me, would be within his rights to request a list of the allegations under investigation.
Denis

[armedleo]

Despite my "knowledge" of firearms, it is quite clear that the experience and training you (Denis) and John have far outstrips my own. (Thankfully!)

My own opinion aside (not that it would influence you guys anyway), I have a sort of related question: In a police shootout, would one not expect to recover more empty shell casings than projectiles?

[DPris]

Too wide a question, too many variables.

Depends on:

How many officers fired.

How many rounds fired.

Terrain (as far as recovering empty brass).

Terrain (as far as any containment or backstop features that would/could stop any or all bullets).

Terrain (as far as fixed or transient, either mobile scene or mobile scene features).

Thoroughness/scope of scene search.

There is no Yes or No answer possible to that question.

In the case you've described so far, IF two primary wounds of essentially equal size (indicating both were caused by an intact bullet, not a "split" bullet or secondary bullet fragments) were found, it would indicate two shots were fired.

Since there are two containment vessels, body & car, it SHOULD be possible to recover sufficient projectile fragments to weigh & compare against the weight of a single bullet exemplar vs two. You probably will not recover all fragments, but should be able to recover enough to at least add up to more than the weight of one bullet. If the two bullet wounds & the recovered fragment weights add up, or even if the ME's absolutely certain BOTH wounds were caused by essentially full-weight bullets, then two shots are corroborated.

Since Joe's pistol was two rounds "low" when recovered from him, there is an obvious question raised that can be considered a prima facie conclusion that Joe was the one who fired them.

Since no officers present were swabbed, and apparently no other pistols or mags were checked for round counts, the question of one shooter or two can't be answered definitively, at this point.

Since Joe's two backup mags were also low, that multiplies the uncertainty factor.

If two shots were fired, and only one brass recovered, obviously there SHOULD have been a second fired case somewhere, and that's regardless of who fired the second shot.

Terrain features may combine to hide it.
Bushes, storm drain grates, cracks in asphalt or sidewalk cement, other vehicles (inside bumpers, etc).

One extreme possibility might be that IF a second officer fired, he may have picked up his brass during the immediate aftermath.
I hesitate to suggest this, because it introduces an element of deliberate deception on the part of one officer & I frankly think that's a highly outlandish scenario.

What would be the need?
It would imply a conscious decision to remove his own participation as a shooter, in a justifiable shooting, and the assumption that nobody else present saw him fire or that all would go along with his assertions that he did not fire.

In the case at hand, it is quite possible that there's still a piece of 9mm brass sitting at that scene, in or under something.

It might be suggested that Joe's Glock be checked for any mechanical issues that could show an erratic ejection pattern.

Normally, a pair of shots fired from the same spot should deposit two empty brass cases roughly in the same area (or fairly close to each other).
If his does, a second brass should have been, depending on terrain features, fairly easy to recover.
If his does not, that, compared with terrain features, may indicate why it might not have been, and/or where it may possibly have ended up.

I wouldn't run too far with it, but late Third Gen & early Fourth Gen Glocks in certain models had a tendency to develop abnormal ejection patterns.

That might occur between 800-2000 rounds, and typically ejected straight up & back, as opposed to out to the side.

Kinda loosely called the BTF issue (Brass To Forehead).

If that pistol does eject erratically, scene searches may have paid more attention to where a second case SHOULD have been than where it COULD have been.
I emphasize here that with a competent technical crew, this is not probable.

It's rare for a Glock to exceed 30 feet in ejection, regardless of angle & direction.
In your scene photos, are there any ground features in a 30-foot radius that could hide a case?

Denis

[armedleo]

Things are looking up; if not interesting or, as you say, "curious."

So, the lab signs in receiving Glock 17 with 16 rounds. This, of course, has me concerned. And Joe is offering no explanations and truth to tell, he's been of little help with very terse answers and he's very difficult to talk to as it is because he's so damned angry.

But, the crime scene tech's report notes that she received from a detective to whom Joe surrendered his Glock in the presence of the crime tech his pistol containing 16 live 9mm rounds in the magazine and one chambered live 9mm round. The detective ejected the live round from the chamber for safety in transporting it to the lab. But the gun was rec'd by the lab with 16 rounds as reflected in lab notes. And no mention of the 17th round. That was not sent to the lab. So, Joe did carry 17 + 1.

[DPris]

That does change things.
If you have documentation that 17 rounds were recovered from Joe's Glock, and he states he fired once, appears to corroborate his statement.

Which raises certain questions.

Why the IA focusing only on Joe?
Why the apparent issue over "lying"?

I can see a department wanting to clear up the two-shot issue, by why only focus on Joe if you have two confirmed bullet holes, his statement of one shot fired, and 17 rounds recovered from his pistol?
Denis

[2ndsojourn]

And the plot thickens....

[RAfiringline]

>My own opinion aside (not that it would influence you guys anyway), I have a sort of related question: In a police shootout, would one not expect to recover more empty shell casings than projectiles?<

Not if wind, footsteps, car treads etc. rolled, kicked, picked up or sent down a drain, one or more casings.

[JohnKSa]

In a police shootout, would one not expect to recover more empty shell casings than projectiles?

Depends on the circumstances. In general, I'd expect to lose both shell casings and projectiles once in awhile because of Murphy's law.

For example, if someone steps on a shell casing and it "squeezes" out from under the side of the shoe, it can shoot quite a distance. Even more so if a car drives over it and something similar happens. Even if it gets kicked around accidentally it could get far enough away that it's not found. There are drains, hidden holes, animals that collect shiny objects, etc. As a kid I remember dropping a .45ACP casing in the grass my back yard and losing it even though I knew where it fell to within a square yard or so.

And projectiles, of course, can go a very long distances and/or end up in places where they are very unlikely to be found.