The new 28ga. Judge

Speedy Warrior · January 17, 2011, 06:01 PM

So it was announced at shot show today that a 28ga. Judge will be available soon. I am posting it here for two reasons,
1. How is this legal and not a sbs?
2. Would it be possible or should I say legal to make a 12ga. pistol without making a sbs?

Please correct me if I am wrong but I understand the laws to state that a pistol cannot have a dia. over .50” and must have a rifled barrel. If the barrel is unrifled then it is classified as a shotgun. Please help as I am very confused.

oneounceload · January 17, 2011, 06:06 PM

if it has a rifled barrel, it is not a SBS, it is a handgun - how it will be allowed to be imported without handgun ammo is another question

bigghoss · January 17, 2011, 06:46 PM

my guess is they got an exemption similar to big game rifles over .50

gyvel · January 17, 2011, 07:28 PM

Well, 28 gauge equates to a .550" bore, which, assuming the "Judge" is rifled, is going to make it a "destructive device" according to ATF definition.

PTK · January 18, 2011, 12:25 AM

Yeah, I can't figure it out either. They're not getting those into the country en masse, though.

kozak6 · January 18, 2011, 12:51 AM

It can't be an SBS, as it's likely never had a shoulder stock attached.

I'm thinking there's two main possibilities. It could possibly an AOW, and they are hoping the $5 transfer helps with the sting of NFA silliness, or somehow they swung a sporting purposes exemption.

David Hineline · January 18, 2011, 03:01 AM

I'm thinking there's two main possibilities. It could possibly an AOW, and they are hoping the $5 transfer helps with the sting of NFA silliness, or somehow they swung a sporting purposes exemption.

Can't be that imported NFA firearms are Law Enf/Govment Agency only.

kozak6 · January 18, 2011, 08:59 AM

I know Taurus imports some of their revolvers with longer barrels to get past the point system and then chops them once they get off the dock.

It might be possible for the 28 gauge to have a more importable configuration, and then be reconfigured stateside.

PTK · January 18, 2011, 01:09 PM

...which would still make it NFA as an AOW. They'd have to put a 21" barrel on it (mostly liner after the shroud) and then chop nearly all of it off to make it a pistol.

Are we SURE CTD isn't just making things up again?

David Hineline · January 18, 2011, 04:43 PM

My guess is that they squeezed the bore down to .499

bigghoss · January 18, 2011, 06:13 PM

OR they got an exemption from the ATF. there are rifles with bores over .50 that have been granted exemptions and can be bought and sold just like anything else.

Ronbo1 · January 18, 2011, 10:36 PM

Found a picture of the 28Ga

Cannon · January 19, 2011, 06:51 PM

Quote:

OR they got an exemption from the ATF. there are rifles with bores over .50 that have been granted exemptions and can be bought and sold just like anything else.

Except there's absolutely no precedent for ATF doing so with handguns, as far as I know. Bowen discusses jumping through the ATF hoops to register his 577 Redhawk as a DD.

Smoothbore pistols are AOW's, regardless of bore; rifled pistols with a bore over .5" are DD's

I'm really curious about this.

chewie146 · January 19, 2011, 11:28 PM

Hey all,

There is something to remember. The .410/.45 is more a coincidence than a design. People have been chambering .410 in .454, etc. before the Taurus Judge. The 28 gauge shotgun, as you mentioned, is bigger than .50 caliber. However, that is solely the nominal diameter of the barrel in a shotgun, and not the actual size of the wad/projectiles coming out of the shell. The diameter of a 28 gauge wad may very well be within the .50 cal limit, and that plastic shell could easily measure .025 inches on the "case wall" for an additional .05 inches in diameter. Chamber diameter is unrestricted, as far as I know.

jimbob86 · January 19, 2011, 11:36 PM

IF

...... you are going to waste $400 bucks on this.... thing...... why not waste another $200, and do the paperwork, so it would actually..... you know ..... WORK?!?!?!?!

The rifling that makes it "legal" also makes the shot pattern lousy: shot hits everything but what you actually point the damn thing at!

gyvel · January 23, 2011, 02:54 AM

Quote:

410/.45 and 29 gauge

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey all,

There is something to remember. The .410/.45 is more a coincidence than a design. People have been chambering .410 in .454, etc. before the Taurus Judge. The 28 gauge shotgun, as you mentioned, is bigger than .50 caliber. However, that is solely the nominal diameter of the barrel in a shotgun, and not the actual size of the wad/projectiles coming out of the shell. The diameter of a 28 gauge wad may very well be within the .50 cal limit, and that plastic shell could easily measure .025 inches on the "case wall" for an additional .05 inches in diameter. Chamber diameter is unrestricted, as far as I know.

You bring up a very valid point, but, does BATF define a "destructive device" by the diameter of the projectile or the bore diameter?

smince · January 23, 2011, 02:30 PM

Quote:

yesterday PM they moved against Taurus on the 28-gauge Raging Judge revolver and the Rossi .410 "mare's leg" style carbine. Neither of the Taurus guns are in production, so the ATF move essentially prohibits production of those guns as anything other than, I believe, an AOW Controlled weapon, with the paperwork and $5 tax.

http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/2011...-shotguns.html

GunCat · January 23, 2011, 03:59 PM

Jimbob86 wrote:

The rifling that makes it "legal" also makes the shot pattern lousy: shot hits everything but what you actually point the damn thing at!

What defines "rifling" ? * Land and grooves vs. Smooth bore?

What if a bore has straight lands and grooves (no rotation?)

( *I am asking because I do not know the answer as it relates to the NFA/AOW laws )

Pukindog · January 23, 2011, 05:19 PM

Just received notice from Guns America taurus removed the 28 gauge Judge from the booth and will not produce it.

Jeff

EVERLAST · January 24, 2011, 07:27 PM

Talk about crash and burn...
and it was just play by play reading the thread.

cool

E

kozak6 · January 25, 2011, 04:10 AM

I wish I knew why Taurus thought they'd be able to slip it by.

And I wish I knew *exactly* why the BATFE zapped it.

There's a lot of speculation, but that's about it.

Speedy Warrior · January 25, 2011, 10:42 AM

Well kozak I would have to guess the BATFE stoppped it because it is in clear violation of well esablished rules. But I too wish to know how/why Taurus thought this would be ok.

Glenn E. Meyer · January 25, 2011, 11:17 AM

Failure of judgement?

Who knows. One would think that they would figure this out - or maybe they thought they could get a little more PR for their entire Judge line with this gun?

kaylorinhi · January 25, 2011, 02:01 PM

Maybe they made it just test the BATFE, or see if they get it by!

Poodleshooter · January 25, 2011, 02:02 PM

Quote:

What defines "rifling" ? * Land and grooves vs. Smooth bore?

What if a bore has straight lands and grooves (no rotation?)

It's not defined as either that I can find. So either would constitute rifling I would assume.
Straight lands and grooves are already used in Hastings barrels (called "Wadlock" IIRC). AOWs can't have rifling by definition, unless they are a pistol or revolver modified with a vertical firing grip.

The Raging Judge in its configuration as displayed would be a DD unless the secretary of the treasury decided that it had a sporting purpose under the exception for shotguns. This is already done for shotguns sold with rifled barrels, for example, which don't otherwise fit the ATF definition of shotguns (having a smooth bore).

Remember, all shotguns over .5" bore can be redefined as "non-sporting" at will by the the Sec of the Treasury, at which point they become DDs. This is how ATF "redefined" the Striker 12. Rifling is irrelevant to the DD law.

January 17, 2011, 06:01 PM	#1
Speedy Warrior Member Join Date: March 23, 2010 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 30	The new 28ga. Judge So it was announced at shot show today that a 28ga. Judge will be available soon. I am posting it here for two reasons, 1. How is this legal and not a sbs? 2. Would it be possible or should I say legal to make a 12ga. pistol without making a sbs? Please correct me if I am wrong but I understand the laws to state that a pistol cannot have a dia. over .50” and must have a rifled barrel. If the barrel is unrifled then it is classified as a shotgun. Please help as I am very confused. __________________ "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." -Thomas Jefferson

January 17, 2011, 06:46 PM	#3
bigghoss Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2006 Location: Pueblo, Colorado Posts: 2,664	my guess is they got an exemption similar to big game rifles over .50 __________________ I don't collect guns, I accumulate them.

January 18, 2011, 06:13 PM	#11
bigghoss Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2006 Location: Pueblo, Colorado Posts: 2,664	OR they got an exemption from the ATF. there are rifles with bores over .50 that have been granted exemptions and can be bought and sold just like anything else. __________________ I don't collect guns, I accumulate them.

January 18, 2011, 10:36 PM	#12
Ronbo1 Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2004 Location: MN Posts: 136	Judge Found a picture of the 28Ga __________________ When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty. America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves Abraham Lincoln

January 19, 2011, 11:28 PM	#14
chewie146 Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2010 Location: New Mexico Posts: 853	.410/.45 and 29 gauge Hey all, There is something to remember. The .410/.45 is more a coincidence than a design. People have been chambering .410 in .454, etc. before the Taurus Judge. The 28 gauge shotgun, as you mentioned, is bigger than .50 caliber. However, that is solely the nominal diameter of the barrel in a shotgun, and not the actual size of the wad/projectiles coming out of the shell. The diameter of a 28 gauge wad may very well be within the .50 cal limit, and that plastic shell could easily measure .025 inches on the "case wall" for an additional .05 inches in diameter. Chamber diameter is unrestricted, as far as I know.

January 17, 2011, 06:06 PM	#2
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	if it has a rifled barrel, it is not a SBS, it is a handgun - how it will be allowed to be imported without handgun ammo is another question

January 17, 2011, 07:28 PM	#4
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Well, 28 gauge equates to a .550" bore, which, assuming the "Judge" is rifled, is going to make it a "destructive device" according to ATF definition.

January 18, 2011, 12:25 AM	#5
PTK Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2008 Posts: 442	Yeah, I can't figure it out either. They're not getting those into the country en masse, though.

January 18, 2011, 12:51 AM	#6
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	It can't be an SBS, as it's likely never had a shoulder stock attached. I'm thinking there's two main possibilities. It could possibly an AOW, and they are hoping the $5 transfer helps with the sting of NFA silliness, or somehow they swung a sporting purposes exemption.

January 18, 2011, 03:01 AM	#7
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	I'm thinking there's two main possibilities. It could possibly an AOW, and they are hoping the $5 transfer helps with the sting of NFA silliness, or somehow they swung a sporting purposes exemption. Can't be that imported NFA firearms are Law Enf/Govment Agency only.

January 18, 2011, 08:59 AM	#8
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	I know Taurus imports some of their revolvers with longer barrels to get past the point system and then chops them once they get off the dock. It might be possible for the 28 gauge to have a more importable configuration, and then be reconfigured stateside.

January 18, 2011, 01:09 PM	#9
PTK Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2008 Posts: 442	...which would still make it NFA as an AOW. They'd have to put a 21" barrel on it (mostly liner after the shroud) and then chop nearly all of it off to make it a pistol. Are we SURE CTD isn't just making things up again?

January 18, 2011, 04:43 PM	#10
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	My guess is that they squeezed the bore down to .499

January 19, 2011, 11:36 PM	#15
jimbob86 Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: All the way to NEBRASKA Posts: 8,722	My thoughts: IF ...... you are going to waste $400 bucks on this.... thing...... why not waste another $200, and do the paperwork, so it would actually..... you know ..... WORK?!?!?!?! The rifling that makes it "legal" also makes the shot pattern lousy: shot hits everything but what you actually point the damn thing at!

January 23, 2011, 03:59 PM	#18
GunCat Member Join Date: December 27, 2008 Location: Western, KY Posts: 41	Jimbob86 wrote: The rifling that makes it "legal" also makes the shot pattern lousy: shot hits everything but what you actually point the damn thing at! What defines "rifling" ? * Land and grooves vs. Smooth bore? What if a bore has straight lands and grooves (no rotation?) ( I am asking because I do not know the answer as it relates to the NFA/AOW laws ) __________________ Hardships are quickly forgotten. Intense heat, bitter cold, rain and snow, fatigue, and luckless hunting fade quickly into memories of great fellowship, thoughts of beautiful country, pleasant camps, and happy campfires. Fred Bear 1902-1988*

January 23, 2011, 05:19 PM	#19
Pukindog Member Join Date: December 10, 2009 Posts: 90	28 Gauge Judge Just received notice from Guns America taurus removed the 28 gauge Judge from the booth and will not produce it. Jeff

January 24, 2011, 07:27 PM	#20
EVERLAST Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Posts: 36	wow........... Talk about crash and burn... and it was just play by play reading the thread. cool E

January 25, 2011, 04:10 AM	#21
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	I wish I knew why Taurus thought they'd be able to slip it by. And I wish I knew exactly why the BATFE zapped it. There's a lot of speculation, but that's about it.

January 25, 2011, 10:42 AM	#22
Speedy Warrior Member Join Date: March 23, 2010 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 30	Well kozak I would have to guess the BATFE stoppped it because it is in clear violation of well esablished rules. But I too wish to know how/why Taurus thought this would be ok. __________________ "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." -Thomas Jefferson

January 25, 2011, 11:17 AM	#23
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Failure of judgement? Who knows. One would think that they would figure this out - or maybe they thought they could get a little more PR for their entire Judge line with this gun? __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 25, 2011, 02:01 PM	#24
kaylorinhi Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2010 Location: The brown eye of america Posts: 463	Maybe they made it just test the BATFE, or see if they get it by! __________________ Buy your guns by Yardline, Not Looks.

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