newbie seeks advice on primer pocket cleaning

[Frankly]

it's to tell my dirty cases are mine next all the clean factory brass on the floor

That's why I prefer shooting revolvers-- I don't have to crawl around on the ground to retrieve my brass.

[snuffy]

I'll quote myself, with better explanation;

the result is CLEAN BRASS. Did I say clean? That results in the need to lube the cases more than if tumbled in dry media.

Tumbling in dry media, especially corn cob, will leave traces of oils on the brass. Some, like me, use car wax like NuFinish to add to the sparkle. This leaves a minute layer of wax on the cases. For handgun straight walled cases, this is all they need to glide through our modern day carbide sizer dies.

Brass cleaned in the SS pins will be too darn clean, dry and lacking ANY kind of lube to help it go through a sizer die. Can you still size them without lubing??¿¿ Yes, but it will take more force to do it!

Now I don't have or have access to a SS tumbler. BUT I do have an ultrasonic cleaner. I just got an order from Amazon for 1K 9mm brass. This was range pick-up that had obviously been cleaned by an ultrasonic cleaner. They were bare bones dry and clean inside and out. Feeding them into my dillon 650's case feeder, I noticed how much harder the brass was to size. I simply sprayed all the brass in the feeder a couple of squirts with Midway case lube in the sprayer bottle. The action of the feeder distributed the lube to all cases.

Much easier to resize. I may start doing that with my dry vibratory cleaned brass as well.

All I can say is; try it. Once you have them dry after SS cleaning, try sizing a few. If the force needed is okay with you, then no need to lube them. The extra drag on the outside of the case may push the side of the case down so hard that it shortens the OAL, (Over All Length), of the brass. Especially the high intensity brass like 9mm, 40 S&W, and 10MM. It expands more because of the higher pressure.

[Frankly]

Snuffy,

The brass I showed in my original post pic is how they came out of the dry tumbler. This was using walnut shell media. It did not make the shells look like new, and I really didn't care. My understanding was that the point was to get them clean enough to inspect for splits or other defects. I imagine corn cob would have a much greater amount of lubricating properties than walnut shell, but what do I know. I had not added lubricant of any kind because I was under the impression that lubing the cases was unnecessary with carbide dies. I may have misinterpreted Lee or Lyman on that. If it is as simple as adding something to the media at time of tumbling, I can certainly do that, but of the thousand or so shells I have decapped and resized before and during this discussion, the only ones giving any real resistance in the die are the foreign ones. The US made brass is offering very little resistance in the resizing die. I had mentioned that a couple times now in this thread, hoping someone would weigh in that, but nobody has. My theory was that the foreign made stuff had thinner walls and so was expanding more when fired. Please correct me as necessary on my hypothesis. Hmmm. Anyway, this lubing issue does create a new wrinkle...

[Damon555]

This is a very simple question to answer.....Don't bother cleaning them....it's a waste of time to do it unless you have time to waste.

[rodfac]

Plus 1 on Bart's post #16....I don't bother with pistol, but do clean them for rifle...a small screwdriver tip with one circular sweep. Rod

[polyphemus]

I don't bother with pistol, but do clean them for rifle

Could you please explain why?

[Sevens]

How about:

pistol is short distance, far less precision and high volume

rifle is long distance, high precision and low volume

[polyphemus]

Thank you 7's but it doesn't stand to logic.

[Sevens]

Bull. It's all logical, just maybe doesn't fit your view.

Most folks put hundreds of rounds through a pistol in one session... with a bolt action rifle one can have a full day with 40-60 rds.

Action pistol or IDPA shooters drop a steel plate or punch holes in the "A" zone of cardboard, they don't need nor wouldn't notice a tenth of an inch difference in their group size at 10 to 20 times the distance.

If none if that jives for you, no problem. I'm sure your needs are different.

[billcarey]

I clean the pockets because it it feels more consistant when priming than when priming dirty. It's reality, not theory. I'm not hard core about it but I feel the difference (smoother) and like doing it this way it better. I normally deprime and tumble the pockets clean...but on really dirty ones I use a lee hand tool to knock the crud out. I tumble (not vibrate) with walnut and check the flash holes after. When I first started reloading I didn't clean the pockets but a few years later noticed the difference and changed my style.

bc

[Frankly]

Sevens,

What I am hearing from you is that cleaning the pockets DOES make some sort of a difference, but that the difference does not matter with handguns, yet does matter with long guns... is that essentially correct? I am just trying to zero in on your point.

[polyphemus]

If none if that jives for you, no problem

I would be grateful if this discussions was about the technical details of primer pocket readiness for reloading and not about my "needs".
Here's the thing if the primer pocket being loaded with carbon affects accuracy
then this is an issue regardless of arm,I can't be certain that it has anything to
do with it but if you do then why not give the same attention to both.As far as
this goes the old saying applies: garbage in garbage out.

[Sevens]

No, I am not saying it absolutely makes a difference in accuracy. The question was asked and the way I read the question was "why would some do it for rifle and not for pistol?" and my view is that SOME folks do a fractional volume of rifle loading than pistol and it's an entirely different operation that requires different tasks and chores and in most cases, far lower round count.

I've rolled over 4,500 handgun rounds in the last three months and I'm not even a competition handgun shooter. For many of us, handguns means lots and lots of rounds.

I do -not- clean pockets on rifle or pistol handloads but the idea that folks loading rifle spend FAR more time on each single piece of brass is simply not a complicated idea and it is also not illogical in any way that handgun needs for accuracy... with fixed sights, a 4" barrel, 6" sighting plane and 12 yards distance to a six-inch steel plate that only takes each shot as PASS OR FAIL... simply does NOT require precision accuracy work that a bottle neck rifle round with a telescopic sight of many hundreds of dollars at a target sitting 100-300 yards or more away... Etc etc etc...

Too much energy burnt on this already.

If anything positive were gained from input here, great!
If someone wants to split hairs and argue about mechanical accuracy that has X tangible value in the real world, have at it.

[snuffy]

Here's the thing if the primer pocket being loaded ??¿¿ with carbon affects accuracy
then this is an issue regardless of arm,I can't be certain that it has anything to
do with it but if you do then why not give the same attention to both.As far as
this goes the old saying applies: garbage in garbage out.

Fact is; it's not anywhere near that critical. You make it sound like the residue left behind after a primer fires is ¼ inch thick! It hardly amounts to anything, but it sure does look nasty. The anvil of the new primer will seat just fine on top of it, the new primer will also fire just fine. I saw someone blame the residue for FTF,(failure to fire). It was most likely failure to seat properly, (deep enough).

Those of us that use any of the progressives on the market, the way they're meant to be used, don't clean primer pockets. There just isn't any way to do it without interrupting the cycle. IF you want to call what falls out of my Dillon garbage, then so be it. But be ready to go head-to-head with me with your immaculate primer pockets with the handgun of your choice at whatever discipline you want. I'll bring my best choice, dirty primer pockets and all.

[polyphemus]

Once again I remove the carbon deposits from primer pockets because if I don't I get high primers.
Having got that out of the way,Philip Sharpe writes in his Complete Guide to Reloading that "..primers leave a hard brittle fouling that is extremely abrasive and this forms a cake in the bottom of the pocket and is inclined to prevent proper seating of primers..." I agree.

[Damon555]

Once again I remove the carbon deposits from primer pockets because if I don't I get high primers.

May I respectfully ask what priming device you use that results in high primers? I've used several RCBS presses, a Dillon 550b and 2 different lee hand primers throughout my 20 years of reloading and have never experienced a high primer caused by carbon buildup in the primer pocket......and none of the pockets had ever been cleaned.

[polyphemus]

May I respectfully ask what priming device you use that results in high primers?

A:The device I use to seat the primers is a standard Lee primer arm what caused primer issues however was carbon build up on the bottom of the pockets,it is not my favourite occupation but I don't get high primers anymore
since I started removing the debris.Rifle cases may require more attention to
detail I wouldn't know but if scraping the pockets is what it takes to produce
quality reloads then that's what I'll do.

[snuffy]

I just had a thought. How about we do what makes us feel good about our reloads, let others do the same.

Confidence is what it's all about. We get defensive when somebody else says "you just have to do this or that."

[stagpanther]

I just had a thought. How about we do what makes us feel good about our reloads, let others do the same.

Confidence is what it's all about. We get defensive when somebody else says "you just have to do this or that."
__________________
The more people I meet, the more I love my dog

They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

Amen. Unless somebody provides evidence that it's actually harmful to clean em--I say it's time to deep six this thread.

[Frankly]

Snuffy,

When you add car wax to your tumbler:

1. How exactly do you go about doing it?

2. Does it work the same whether you are using cob or walnut?

3. Do you have to clean it off after resizing, and, if so, why?

Your answers to these three questions would be most helpful...

[condor bravo]

You will no doubt be receiving several responses to the above.
With tumbler running but no brass added, just pour "some", like several capfills, directly into tumbler from bottle. Note that the polish will immediately clump-up with the media but it needs to be distributed throughout. To speed up this process insert a hand into the tumbler and use the fingers to break up the clumps as the tumbler is still running. Should work equally as well for walnut or corncob. I only use walnut so some other responder can verify corncob. No residue to remove after tumbling. Tumbling times will vary considerably depending on who you talk to, or who responds. Much can depend on whether tumbling rifle or handgun brass. Rifle brass usually taking less time since there is usually less powder blowback to remove. I find one hour satisfactory for most rifle brass tumbling. Replinish polish as you think necessary; perhaps after 10 or 12 tumblings.

[snuffy]

What condor bravo said. With the addition that I use corn cob as the media. Nu Finish is a car polish that contains wax that gets deposited on the brass case. This is a very small, very thin coating that helps brass in a couple of ways. It is slippery, aids in sliding the brass while it sizes, and it protects the brass from tarnish and corrosion. Bright shiny cases stay bright and shiny while in storage.

Other tumbler additives like the midway polish also has some wax in it, but it has a mild abrasive as well. It cuts the tarnish that is making the brass dull but is a soft abrasive that will not hurt dies or barrel steel. People hear abrasive, they immediately think of grinder wheels or carborundum hard abrasives. There are different grade,(hardness) of abrasives.

Flitz makes a brass tumbler additive that works really well. I suspect it too has some wax in it. An automotive rubbing compound also makes a good tumbler additive. It has a mild abrasive only hard enough to cut the dull paint on the cars finish, just the right hardness for a brass tumbler. It also has wax in it.

All of these are liquid that has to be mixed into the media. As CB said, let the tumbler run for as long as it needs to run to get the clumps of wax and media to dissipate and mix in. I add it slowly while it's running WITHOUT brass in it, but with enough media for a batch of brass. As for when to add more, well if it stops working as quickly that's when.

Another trick for dry tumblers is to put a used dryer softener sheet in with the media and polish. The makeup of the dryer sheet is a sort of a mesh that will collect the black dirt that always accumulates in the media. A chunk of paper towel can also be used. Cut it up so it will circulate with the brass. This extends the life of the media.

[Frankly]

Condor and Snuffy,

That's great feedback on questions 1 and 2, but what about question 3? I've seen in a number of posts people talking about "cleaning the lube off" brass after resizing. What's that about?

[Sevens]

If lube gets inside the brass it will corrupt the powder.

It is also never going to be a good idea (outside of .22LR) to have lube present on the outside of brass that you intend to shoot. One more thing to much up the normal firing process inside a chamber FULL of fire and brimstone.

I use Imperial to lube bottle neck rifle brass for sizing. After doing so, the whole big pile of sized brass goes in to the old school vibratory tumbler with corn media for just 15-20 minutes to clean the Imperial off the brass. Simple, quick, easy.

[stagpanther]

If lube gets inside the brass it will corrupt the powder.

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