Help ma build a long-range rifle

[skizzums]

hey guys, I have been throwing around all kinds of ideas for a long-range rifle. I was dead set on doing an AR10, but don't think it will be AS accurate as what I could do with less money on a bolt. after toying with calibers, I have settled on .308 for brass/bullet/powder availability. When I say "long-range" I am talking MOA out to 700 to 1000 yards. I could plan to go further, but my budget limits me(mainly for the glass).

Here is the route I plan to go:
1. Buy a new or used stevens 200 .308, hopefully in the sub-400$ range
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/14607
(^I know this is out of stock, but just to give you what I want)
I have tossed around with the Savage for the accu-trigger, but I think I would rather go custom trigger anyways.
2. Send action to outside company for trueing, fluting etc.
3. New stock. this is where I need help, I don't want to spend a fortune on a McMillan but want something "good" and decently heavy.
4. Barrel-(24")also need pointers here. Don't feel I need the absolute top of the line, but good enough for MOA of course. not concerned about weight. please give me good affordable brands and what kind of metal I should be looking for. should I go moly? stainless? is anything better than the other when it comes to contour? what kind of crown do I want?
5. Glass-Mueller 16x( I have already used one on a 600y shoot and it was fantastic and in my price range.) I could step up to the 22x if you think it would be necessary
6-Trigger, probably basix or timney.


Please give me pointers on what people are using for stocks and barrels, price range I need to expect. Also, are these barrels usually bolt-on? do they need gun-smithing? does any work need to be done to receiver?

What am I missing, besides the obvious stuff like bedding etc? what kind of rings do I need, 20moa?

should I just scrap the idea and start with a whole different platform/caliber?

any advice and comments are welcome, outside of doing high-power with .223, I have never delved into this kind of distance shooting. please note my budget is limited and 1000 will be pushing it.

one more thing. obviously I want to use the best BC bullets, what twist do I need. and any pics of your custom rifles on stevens or savage actions would be appreciated and drooled over.

[Mosin-Marauder]

Probably going to say no, but why not .260 Remington? Much better ballistics than .308(flatter shooting with less recoil) and is a perfect whitetail and long range target rifle. Without all the recoil of .308. And with handloads it's nearly perfect. Coupled with a good scope, you can go out past 1000 yards (people have done it). Much more successful in competitions than .308. But if you dont reload, i'd settle with the .308. Oh, and you can reform .243 brass really easily to .260.

Sorry, not much help, but just a suggestion. I like my .260.

[Polinese]

I have bell and carlson on my Savage and my Winchester. I like em especially for the money. Run's cheaper than a HS precision with all the benefits.

As for a barrel shilen sells ready to go stainless barrels in 308. I think they come in 26 inches but since you're gonna have all that work done to the action anyways you could just have it shortened.

ER Shaw has a decent following as well and is cheaper, along with green mountain barrels. If you're not gonna be doing bench competitions those are probably just fine. Savage factory barrels are decent shooters too, there is one guy online who sells take off barrels for like 200 bucks.

You could also just buy the one I have in the classifieds and have it disassembled, trued and reassembled

Mo the recoil on a heavy barreled 308 is pretty minimal. In between a 5.56 and a 12 guage out of both of mine.

[skizzums]

i'm fine with a 26" barrel. I just assumed a 24" would be the cheapest and most marketed option. i'm open to anything that would do the job. like I said weight isn't a consideration, I don't hunt or plan to. so the heavier the better. I will check out Bel/Carlson, I haven't heard of them, so these are the types of info I need.

I am sticking with .308 for cost reasons. I think its just fine for 1000 and under. thanks for the recommendation though, I don't disagree with it being a decent cartridge

[Polinese]

308 is a good choice, I personally think its the best general purpose cartridge, doesn't do anything perfect but does everything well. It's plentiful in both factory loads, and load data... good choice.

I like my bell and carlson's and have seen a lot of other folk utilize them as well. They only make the one shape for the savage though, Howa and Remington have a few different ones.

[Unlicensed Dremel]

Well, it would be helpful to know the total budget.

On stocks, although they're expensive, I'd take a good look at Manners stocks - IMO they best and most innovative. Go peruse the Manners site to get a feel for what you want - it's far better to navigate in than other stock makers (not a small additional reason to like them more).

You said your mind is made up but yeah, .260 rem & 6.5 Creedmoor both have materially-superior external ballistics, with *almost* no downside, to speak of. You said cost reasons, which is a good and valid reason, but is it really cheaper to handload? .308 is cheaper to shoot with factory, yes... but with handloads, the brass for .260 is more, but the bullets are less, so not sure how that would shake out in the final analysis. ??

I think one thing you have to decide is the overall WEIGHT of this build - this will limit and mold the stock choice and barrel contour choice (and barrel length). And ultimately, optics choice as well.

If you really want a ONE-MOA capable rifle (near as I can tell, that's what you're saying), then that's not that hard to do and still stay light. If you want a consistent 1/3rd or even a 1/2 MOA rifle, then that's a different animal entirely and going a bit heavier is better - the weight allows you to hold in the wind better and cancel out heartbeat etc. So, let's rule out ultra-light and "light" sporter weights - but do you want a medium-light, medium-medium, medium-heavy, heavy, very heavy, or super heavy rifle?

On barrels, I believe almost any custom maker is going to be very good and plenty good enough -essentially a wash - so realistically, depending on how fast you want it finished, the lead time on making you one may determine who you run with - some barrel makers are so swamped that they won't even take new orders (like Rock Creek / Mike Rock). So decide how long you're willing to wait - I don't think you're going to get a bad barrel from any of the usual suspects.

Barrel length - personally for .308 or .260, I'd go with a 24" or 26" (preferably 26") for most long-range builds, but don't rule out 22" if you want a handier lightweight rig, and if you're willing to build a heavy rig, don't rule out 28, 29, or even 30". The more length, the more velocity, with no additional pressure. It's a "free" ballistic lunch, so to speak, if you're ok with the weight and length.

The length you want may even narrow down your barrel maker options. Most makers will go up to 30" without an obscene special-order charge, but some makers will only go to 28 or 27" with their standard blanks. So again, overall weight of the build has to be decided first, I think.

Some people of course buy or build .308s with 16, 18, or 20" bbls (they're usually dubbed "police tactical" or some such). I don't think that having a barrel shorter than 22" is at all worth the tradeoff for this type of rifle... the weight savings aren't there (due to the heavyish stock), and the handy-ness would only be needed in the most extreme of circumstances (like shooting from inside a car or some such).

I'd spend more on glass than any other component, if you really want to shoot at 1K yards. The Mueller might work for 400 or even 600, but not 1,000. The glass quality is much more important than the magnification; having said that, magnification is GOOD, so the more the better up to about 25x (after which mirage becomes a problem). Well, to clarify: More magnification is better on high quality glass. More magnification is NOT necessarily better on lower quality glass - might be, might not be. So if you stay with that brand & line, probably no need to change the magnif. model either. 16x may very well be about the highest magnif that the glass can resolve well.

I agree turnbolt is the way to go over a semi-auto, for this accuracy level on a budget.

Beyond that, I ain't much help - I'll leave it to the real experts to chime in - Brian, Bart, Jimro, taylorce, etc.

Your action and trigger choices are fine/great.

[skizzums]

i am hoping to keep the rifle under aa thousand dollars(not including optic), but i am thinking i might be able to go considerably less than 1k, we'll see. lke i said, weight isn't a consideration. i feel the heavier the better for a dedicated target rfile. i am not rushing this, if i built this before christmas i would be homeless. i do have an ar10 lower and parts kit i a m going to sell a.s.a.p. to get me started, since i have decided not to build the ar10. so far i have heard fantastic things from people shooting 1k with the mueller optics, i would like to give them a try unless it's just totally unrealistic. the optics will be even farther down the road. right now i want to get the barrel and stock narrowed down first, i may go ahead and buy the barrel or stock in the coming month if i can find something available. i just want to make the best choice. pleae understand i am not going for a competition rifle, the best isnt needed. i want to be able to hit 24" target at 700-1000 yards max i am hoping the mid-range priced stuff will put me there if i do my job.

[Snyper]

i want to be able to hit 24" target at 700-1000 yards max i am hoping the mid-range priced stuff will put me there if i do my job.

I'd look for an older used Remington Sendero.
With the right loads they will easily do under 1", and many have H-S Precision stocks already

[dakota.potts]

How do you feel about Boyd's stocks? All of mine are very solid, very aesthetically pleasing, and seem to have very generously inletted barrel channels for free floating.

[dakota.potts]

Also, based on the ballistics I've seen, 6.5 Creedmoor is something I would consider building for myself if I were wanting to do what you were doing. Just another cartridge to consider. I believe it's .308 necked down to a 6.5mm projectile.

[skizzums]

wouldn't something like a 6.5 end up costing me more in the long-run? I am not sure, but I could only assume that the barrels cost a bit more. I am not against a boyds stock at all, as long as thy fit the shape of a long-range stock and can easily fit a bipod. I do at the very least want a mono-pod and an adjustable weld

[dakota.potts]

I actually don't know about barrel life, I've not had a gun yet long enough to shoot one out.

The Boyd's stocks are solid and have sling swivels to which you can attach bipods, but I don't know if any of them have adjustable cheek rests or weld

[skizzums]

how do you feel about these barrels? they say threaded for the savage 10 110, isn't that the same as the stevens 200?
http://www.eabco.com/store/savage-ri...rels-by-eabco/

http://www.eabco.com/store/savage-ri...lue/stainless/

[Bart B.]

How many times out of 20 tries do you want to hit that 2-foot circle?

What's the worst accuracy level you think you'll need at 1000 yards? 10 inches? 20?

Depending on your objectives and conditions they'll be met in, I'll have a basis to make recommendations on. First off, you need to put most of the money into the rifle, not the sight. Sights have nothing to do with inheirant accuracy of rifles.

[kraigwy]

I'm with Bart, put the money on the rifle, not so much on the sights.

I shot some good 1000 yard scores with my Model 70 -300 WM using an old used Weaver T-10. Shot better scores with the same gun and Redfield Palma Olympic irons.

Best 1000 yard scores I ever fired was with my M1A super match (Irons)

But what gets me is someone posting I want and have settled on a X caliber and ask for info on the gun/sights.............what he gets is most saying they recommend Y or Z calibers.

He wants a 308 because he thinks it will work at 1000 (and it will) and because of the cost of ammo and components (again he's correct).

I wont comment on the rifle, except to say put the effort into squaring the action with the barrel, lap the bolt lugs, squaring the bolt with the chamber and getting a good barrel (notice I didn't say expensive). Good trigger helps.

Spend most of your money on ammo down range learning environmental conditions.

A quarter min. rifle isn't a quarter min. rifle if the wind blows the bullet into the next area code. That's why you don't see 1/4, 1/2 or even 1 MOA groups at long range matches.

Liston to Bart, I shot long range as a side event to my High Powder, where as Bart (based on his post) concentrate on long range.

[Jimro]

If this is your first long range rifle, just buy a factory Savage new or used. Or get a Savage with an accustock and buy a heavy barrel to slap on it.

Shoot that barrel out, and then if you feel that you are good enough of a shot to need a blueprinted action, then send it out.

Truing the action is generally not needed on a Savage though. If you really want to do it, know that the bolt head is free floating so ensure that the action is trued, bolt lugs are trued, and bolt face is trued with the barrel recever threads. The rest of the action can have a bit of slop in it and it won't matter one bit, but the final lockup is what matters for accuracy.

What this also means is that you shouldn't change out bolt heads willy nilly, so pick one bolt face diameter and stick with it.

Good luck.

Jimro

[skizzums]

Well that's good to know. Should I be looking for a specific twist? 1:12, 1:11? I don't even know what they make for .308s

I am pretty much settled on the optic. Like I said I know some guys at a shooting club that use the Mueller and they love em. I have used them and they will do just fine. What I am not sure of is what kind of mount do I need. I have the Nikon p series on ky 600 yard gun and am very happy with it, bit I assume I would need a higher set for shooting 1k. What's a good.choice?

[old roper]

skizzums, I'm with Jimro you don't need full blown match rifle to start out and do what you can afford and have fun.

[Jimro]

skizzums,

The twist rate affect on accuracy in a 308 at most will be a very small fraction of an inch. To put it in more concrete terms read this article: http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles...ance_twist.htm

Anyways, from a 1:10 twist 0.207 MOA expected group size due to bullet imballance, to 0.167 MOA expected group size due to bullet imbalance is only a 0.04 MOA increase by going with the more common 1:10 twist. Bart B. will tell you about John Whidden making match rifles with a 1:10 twist that shoot amazingly well. When you use high quality bullets with very little imbalance, then a tighter twist is not an impedement to excellent accuracy.

But, if you get a factory Savage, odds are you are stuck with the 1:10 twist. Don't worry about it, just shoot until the barrel has at least 5000 rounds down it (if new) or 3000 (if used) before you even consider replacing the barrel.

When you do replace it, get a 5R 1:11.25 heavy barrel. Not because it is more accurate, but because all the makers I know who make 5R 1:11.25 heavy barrels are good barrel makers.

Hope this helps,
Jimro

[skizzums]

I should be able to get out today and look at rifles. I'm pretty much set om either the stevens 200 or the savage 11. I am interested to see what the price range is on a well used piece. Most likely ill be better off just buying new and selling off a brand new barel and stock.

On the used rifles, besides tight lock-up and proper headspace, any common problem areas I need to look for?

[Bart B.]

What problem areas you need to look for on used rifles depends on what accuracy you want to get? How much accuracy do you want at 1000 yards?

I've got used rifles that'll shoot 5 to 6 inches at 1000 yards with my reloads. There are used rifles in stores that'll shoot no better than 50 inches at 1000 yards with the best ammo anyone can make.

What are your expectations? If the used rifle's groove diameter is larger than the bullets you want to shoot, it probably won't shoot under 24 inches a long way down range. If its barrel has a smaller groove diameter but an extremely eroded leade from several thousand rounds, it's another wash tub gun; that's the size of the groups it'll shoot.

Savage rifles in .308 Win. have twists from 1:10 to 1:13 inches. 1:10's are best with 190 and 200 grain bullets, 1:12 good with 165 to 180 grain bullets, 1:13 are for 150 and 155 grain ones. Aftermarket 30 caliber barrels can be made with twists from 7 to 18 inches.

[skizzums]

So.....what grain do I NEED to shoot to best achieve my goal. Would the heavies have too low velocity? Would the lights have too low BC? Should I go for the middle weights? If I recall correctly, I believe most shooters go_to is in the 160 range, maybe?

[Unlicensed Dremel]

Sights have nothing to do with inherent accuracy of rifles.

That's true but very misleading. Disregards the importance of the optics. Inherent accuracy isn't the whole story.

I suppose it probably depends on how good your eyesight is to begin with. If really good, then the current glass will probably do ya. If like me - not so good - you'll appreciate having spent more on the optics. 1K is extreme range, of course.

[HKFan9]

Bart and Kraig are certainly the two guys I would listen to. Each one most likely has more experience long range and rifle accuracy than a whole lot of us others lumped together.

Inherent accuracy is extremely important, but I agree with Dremel you need a good optic, or a good set of irons (with good eyes) to be able to USE that inherent accuracy.

I don't want to make this XYZ brand discussion, however I would avoid the Stevens 200 and use a Savage. My experience in the grand world of shooting? I am a paper pusher / counter jockey for a large firearms store, but I get sent around often to shoot with firearm company reps, optics makers, ect. I get to play with lots of stuff, but I don't get to shoot long range as much as I'd like to like Kraid and Bart have.

Long range... accurate controlled long range..... and cheap.... are not very easy to do unfortunately. I recomend the Savage for a few reasons. First, although some corners are cut, they are known to be out of the box shooters, that don't cost an arm and a leg. Second, once you do start learning as you go... you DON'T need to be a gunsmith to work on a Savage or replace a barrel, saving you time and money.

I too chose .308 for my LR rig, for the same reasons you state. I am no longer full time counter jockey, I am also a school teacher, so I don't have tons of money or time to reload some exotic rounds (however my next build will probably be 6.5 Creedmoore)

Based on your questions and what you are looking at, I would really suggest buying a factory Savage model 10, they make ones with their Accustock, or McMillian or HS Percision. The Accu-trigger allbeit I hate the feel of it is a decent enough trigger. They are shooters. The most important thing is learning to shoot / read environment variables and adjusting accordingly like others have suggested. Once you seem to get good and start learning... replace the barrel, replace the stock, replace the trigger, invest in some percision reloading equipment (a hobby of its own now) ect.

This is what I am currently doing (learning and upgrading as I go.) although based on my job, and my pro-staff memberships, I was able to start at a higher price point.

Right now I have a Kimber 8400 Advanced Tactical in .308 with a Vortex Razor HD 5-20x56mm on a 20MOA rail, with Vortex branded (I think they are contracted Badger Ord or Seekins Percision rings) matched rings. The Kimber rifle already had a lot of the custom work you are looking into done on it from the factory, I had our gun-smith look it over anyways. We adjusted the trigger down to ~2lbs and torqued everything properly and equally for me. The gun is much more accurate than I am, and capable of that accuracy at greater distances than I am experienced at shooting yet. Right now I am practicing my skills with factory ammo and building up a good brass supply to start handloading.

Now others will scoff because it seems like I spent a lot, which normally I would have, but keep in mind I was part of their pro-staff, and things cost me roughly 50% of MSRP.

Savage makes some nice accurate .308's for the money.. I also got to shoot their long range hunter 6.5 creedmoore with their reps, which I really liked for a factory rifle.

My rifle...

[Jimro]

So.....what grain do I NEED to shoot to best achieve my goal. Would the heavies have too low velocity? Would the lights have too low BC? Should I go for the middle weights? If I recall correctly, I believe most shooters go_to is in the 160 range, maybe?

If you are starting out, get a bunch of Fed GMM or Black Hills 175gr SMK loads to shoot.

If you want to roll your own, stick with the 175 SMK. It won't likely stay supersonic to 1k but it handles the transonic region so well that you won't have any issues. There are about a gajillion threads in the reloading section on making accurate 308 match ammo, so I won't rehash any of that here.

Seriously, pick one load that shoots well in your rifle, then either buy a few thousand, or load a few thousand, and go shooting.

Jimro