Ammo for the Garand...

[Magnum Wheel Man]

some of you may have noticed my other threads with questions surrounding the Garand...

in short, I got the rifle from my FIL, I don't shoot semi autos as much, as I'm a reloader, loading most everything I shoot, & a lazy reloader in that I hate crawling around picking up brass, I have several 30-06 rifles... I use a different brand of case for each rifle, & thus reload specifically for each rifle... I shoot for enjoyment mostly but try for accuracy, I don't compete, & I have my own range that goes to 300 yards, & rarely shoot further...

I had the thread "will I notice a difference in mixed headstamp brass in my Garand" in the reloading section, & the rifle we got from my FIL is a pretty nice rifle

it was determined in the previous listed thread, that in general, new cases would be more accurate than cases reloaded several times in a rifle like the Garand???

I'm thinking that I may just want to buy loaded ammo for the Garand, & if I shoot it enough, to later try my own experiments with reloading for it, from my once fired cases...

I've heard that Prvi has good brass I have experience loading a couple cartridges that are harder to get ( like 7 X 57 Mauser ) & their brass seems as good as anyone's... so... I'm thinking of trying Prvi ammo in the Garand...

curious what you Garand owners experience is, with cheaper, but reloadable ammo brands... what works best in your rifle???

[kraigwy]

If you're looking for ammo for the Garand its hard to beat HXP M2 ball sold by the CMP, 200 rounds in ammo can for $118.

http://estore.thecmp.org/store/catal...4=&note5=&max=

Its quite accurate an capable of cleaning the targets used in the CMP Garand Matches in my Garand, M1903a3, and Model 1917. It was made for the Garand.

Then if you want to reload you'll find the HXP brass exceptional. Just remember to use medium burning powder (4895, 4064, etc) and bullets no heavier then 180 gr.

I get excellent accuracy using the HXP brass with 26.5 gr. of 4064 and Hornady's 168 A-max, Winchester standard LR primers. Its a mild but accurate load. I don't normally use it in the Garand because as I mentioned the HXP works well in Garand Matches which is shot at 100 or 200 yards. Yes the above load is more accurate, but not needed at 200 yards where the X-10 ring is 3.5 MOA. However in the Vintage Sniper Matches fired at 300 and 600 yards it works well.

If recoil is a problem try the 155 Palma bullets. For plinking an targets =/< 200 yards just about any 150 gr. bullet from Hornady or Sierra will work.

The Garand doesn't need to be loaded hot to be accurate, to the contrary, I've found that in nearly 40 years of shooting competition with the Garand the milder loads are more accurate. When loading 150-155 bullets I use 47 gr. of 4064.

4895 works well too, in fact 4895 was designed for the Garand. But in my area 4064 is easier to find and I think less temp. sensitive then 4895. 4064 needs a tad bit more powder then 4895. Not much. An example in my M1A Match loads I used 41.5 gr 4895 with 168 gr. bullets. 42 gr of 4064 gives me the same velocity and sight settings.

You can find better brass then the HXP but its money wasted in the Garand.

The main thing about loading for the Garand (as well as any other gas gun) is to make sure the sizing die is set up to property size the case. You don't need SB dies, but you need to make sure the shoulder of the brass is set back properly. I recommend getting the Wilson Case gage to make sure you seating die is set properly. (same with all gas guns regardless of caliber).

For info the CMP also sells Match ammo from Creedmor, its accurate but pricy. I find the load I mentioned above works as well (better in my M1903A4) and is cheaper.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

Thanks for the comments, & link KRAIG...

the PRVI ammo I was looking at is made for the Garand

link to ammo on Midway

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/127...l-metal-jacket

just because it says it's for the Garand doesn't mean it performs as well as Milsurp ??? which is why I asked...

[tahunua001]

for the garand you need to select ammo that was loaded specifically for the M1 as using powder with the wrong burn rates can damage the op rod. hornady makes factory ammo specific to the M1. HXP military surplus is M1 safe as is any US surplus M2ball, other than that, I defer to Kraig's judgement.

[Bart B.]

I don't think any service grade ammo can be counted on to shoot perfect scores on the standard SR target used at 200 yards in CMP matches. It's 10-ring is 3.5 MOA (7").

Garand accuracy specs are 5 MOA (5 inches) at 100 yards. The best top ranked competitors shooting the best rebuilt Garands will add 1 MOA to whatever it and it's ammo produces. Average shooters with average service grade Garands won't do nearly that well. You'll be lucky to keep all your shots fired from prone inside the 6.5 MOA (13 inch) 9 ring with any service ammo. The original 200 yard military target's high scoring 5-ring was 12 inches.

For comparison, specs for the M14 is 5.5 inches at 100 yards, 4.5 inches for the M16.

[tahunua001]

I don't think any service grade ammo can be counted on to shoot perfect scores on the standard SR target used at 200 yards in CMP matches. It's 10-ring is 3.5 MOA (7").

I'm just going off of what I've observed from a handful of matches done with the CMP shoots here done with reduced targets at 100 yards but I regularly see people shoot very good scores with HXP, one kid at the last match missed a perfect score by 13 points and that's because he shot the wrong target once. I'm not the most stable shooter off hand and I generally do better with my garand and HXP than most of my other guns(and my barrel was fairly shot up in korea and greece), and I believe that if I had sandbags I could quite easily keep most, if not all of my shots inside the 10 ring of the reduced targets at 100 yards. yes there is added difficulty with the 200 yard full targets but that lies in the realm of shooter skill, not inherent accuracy.

[1stmar]

Tahunua what size is the 10 ring on the reduced targets? I'm getting 2-2.5 moa with reloads. Just curious.

[kraigwy]

The X-10 ring on the 100 yard reduced target (SR-1) is 3.5 inches.

X ring is 1.5 inches
10 ring is 3.5 inchs
9 ring is 6.5 inches

[1stmar]

Thx kraig

[Bart B.]

The 100 yard reduced targets' 10-ring sizes for normal stages' ranges are:

for 200 yard stages, standing slow fire and sitting rapid fire: 3.35"

for 300 yard stages, prone rapid fire: 2.12"

for 600 yard stages, prone slow fire: 1.75"

See page 14 in the following NRA high power rule book:

http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf...R/hpr-book.pdf

To shoot perfect scores from standard shooting positions in CMP/NRA matches, you'll need rifle and ammo accuracy no larger than the X-ring sizes listed in the above document.

[tahunua001]

please explain to me why the 10rings grow smaller as the target is moved farther back? that makes zero sense to me. it also makes zero sense that the target is moved to different ranges for different portions of the shoot. every match I've seen has been a fixed range for all courses of fire.

[Bart B.]

Scoring rings are smaller as range increases because more stable postions are used for each longer range. Standard NRA and CMP high power rifle matches are shot at 200, 300 and 600 yards. But reduced targets are allowed when shorter ranges are all that's available. Records are kept for each situation.

A good prone shooter can hold his aiming point inside 1/2 to 3/4 MOA on paper for slow fire shooting one shot every 40 to 50 seconds shooting 600 yards. Rapid fire shooting at 300 yards is one shot every 5 to 6 seconds means a holding area somewhat bigger.

Sitting positions at 200 yards enable about a 1 to 2 MOA holding area. But shots are fired about every 5 to 6 seconds.

From standing at 200 yards, 2 to 3 MOA holding areas are possible shooting once every 40 to 50 seconds.

It takes very accurate rifles and ammo plus top marksmanship skills to shoot groups down range that are only 50% bigger than the holding areas.

A top ranked 1000 yard prone competitor may well have a rifle and ammo that'll shoot inside 6/10ths MOA that far away. If his holding area is only 1/2 MOA, one might assume his groups on target would be about 1.1 MOA maximum. They're not because he doesn't hold the rifle exactly the same for each shot. That opens up the group 1/3 to 1 MOA. Which is why he celebrates when he keeps all 20 record shots inside 2 MOA shooting a perfect score of 200 making sight corrections for changes in the wind along the way.

The less stable the position is, the more the groups on paper open up. Which is why sitting rapid fire groups are larger in subtended angles than prone slow fire. And those shot from standing are the biggest. All with best accuracy of rifle and ammo at the shorter ranges because groups open up about 10% for each 100 yards down range past the first 100 yards.

The link in post #10 lists the different ranges for courses of fire in NRA high power rifle matches. CMP rules for service rifle matches are much the same as seen in the link below:

http://www.odcmp.com/competitions/rulebook.pdf

If the same target used for 600-yard stages shot prone slow fire as used in the 200 yard standing stage, there would be a lot of unbreakable ties shot by the best marksmen using the best equipment for the 600 yard prone slow fire stage of the match. That's what happened in the middle 1960's when the .308 Winchester replaced the .30-06 as the favorite cartridge to shoot the standard course of fire. So, the NRA reduced the sizes of the scoring rings to about half of what they had been for 60 some odd years.

[HiBC]

I have some 30-06 bolt rifles plus a Garand.

My simple solution to not run a bolt action grade hunting load through my Garand:I load all my Garand loads with match bullets.No soft points or ballistic tips,as I do not hunt with my Garand.

I can use those in my 1903A4 copy with no problem,

But I do not load any match bullet 30-06 loads hot or with slow powder.All my match bullet 30-06 loads are Garand safe.

Yes,I keep my ammo reasonably organized,but I have faith in Murphy's Law.

Here is a link to a page of "Master Po's 30-06 Garand loads courtesy NRA"

http://masterpostemple.bravepages.com/M1load.htm

It will give you a number of good,Garand safe loads

[Mannlicher]

tahunua, it's not the burn rate of powder but the weight of the bullet that is of concern. Bullets heavier than MilSpec do tend to damage the op rod, but it's not a guarantee, and many people shoot 150,165, and 168 grain bullet with no ill effects.

[kilimanjaro]

I've run a lot of PRVI through my M1, no issues. Good reloading brass, too.

4895 powder works fine for me, haven't used another.

[Bart B.]

Burn rate of the powder is also a concern. Too slow of a burn rate will put more pressure at the gas port even with a 125-gr. bullet at peak average pressure. That'll bend op rods.

Military rifle teams used 180's with IMR4895 and 190 grain loads with IMR4320 in Garands without any problems whatsoever. Winchester, Western Cartridge Company and Remington loaded 180-gr. bullets in commercial match ammo that was shot in many M1-NM grade rifles without a hitch. There were two cartridge lengths; normal at 3.34" OAL for use in Garand clips and M1903 magazines, the long one at 3.44" OAL for single loading in slow fire matches at long range; cartridge boxes were labeled "For Single (Round) Loading Only." A handful of 'smiths knew how to and did bend and fit op rods correctly to Garands. Everyone else is a duffer to some degree. There may be one or two still left. One of them told me last week he sold all his Garand parts gauging tools

[HiBC]

Mannlicher,you and tahuna are both mostly right,but,to clarify

Mostly two things matter

1)Operate within proper peak pressure.My understanding,thats about 50,000 cup.I could be wrong.

2)The op rod thing is about having the 5000 psi gas pressure at the gas port.

So,we need a pressure curve that's not too high,and relatively quick.

That can be done efficiently with the 175 MK and lighter bullets.

With heavier bullets and 4895 burn rate powder,you will get to the 50,000 cup peak pressure before you get enough velocity to make the heavier bullet worthwhile.You probably could load 200 gr bullets with 4895 BUT!!to keep peak pressure under 50,000 cup,you would have to download it ,and the velocity tradeoff would not make sense.

If you slow down the burn rate,and use,oh,4350,and approach 50,000 cup with a 180 gr bullet,the pressure at the gas port will be well above 5000 psi.

That is what will do violence to the op rod.

[Bart B.]

Peak port pressure is around 10,000 psi with normal service and match ammo.

[tahunua001]

Standard NRA and CMP high power rifle matches are shot at 200, 300 and 600 yards. But reduced targets are allowed when shorter ranges are all that's available. Records are kept for each situation.

most people do not take garands to high power matches, they take them to CMP john C Garand or GSM matches which are all fixed range, either 200 yards, or 100 with reduced targets.

tahunua, it's not the burn rate of powder but the weight of the bullet that is of concern. Bullets heavier than MilSpec do tend to damage the op rod, but it's not a guarantee, and many people shoot 150,165, and 168 grain bullet with no ill effects.

I don't like insulting other members, but I heavily suggest you pick up a few reloading manuals. every manual I have read about that specify data for the M1 garand, specify that it is the burn rate of the powders that causes the failures. I have seen many people shoot heavier loads and not have problems, so long as they use the proper powder burn rates and charges. due to severe risk of law suits I highly doubt that companies like Hornady or sierra would post any information which had not been thoroughly tested and verified beforehand. I am more inclined to believe lawyer talk than internet rumors.

[James K]

Take a look at Bart B.'s group size specs for the M1, M14 and M16 and consider that the spec for the Model 1861 rifle-musket was --- 4 inches at 100 yards.

Don't you just love progress?

Jim

[HiBC]

Bart,I have no doubt you measured the port pressure as you stated.I'm pretty sure my number is an old Ordnance Dept spec from Hatcher's Garand book.It said 5000 or 6000 psi,with a + or- spec.

I do not have the book handy right now.I'll track it down.

The difference may be just the instruments available.

[Bart B.]

I've never measured a Garand port pressure, but many on line documents put it at around 10,000 psi.

Folks rebarreling Garands at the USN shop showed me MIL SPEC sheets stating that number. They had to open up the ports in the 7.62 Garand barrels to about 80% larger area because the NATO round's port pressure in Garand barrels was only about 6,000 psi. M14's have about 12,000 psi port pressure.