The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 21, 2012, 10:06 AM   #1
Kimio
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2011
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,171
Home defense shotgun, best choice under duress?

Me and a friend of mine were discussing the topic of home defense, and while I usually advocate a handgun is a great option if not the optimal option a good shotgun should not be ruled out.

The debate between the two of us was the tired and beaten to death argument of whether a pump action or a semi auto shotgun is the optimal choice.

There was a twist to this discussion and that involved the thought of the unthinkable happening where our significant other was left in a situation where either of us was not present due to being away from the home or incapacited by the intruders.

His query involved, in a state of anxiety, would his wife be able to function in that state and remember to rack the slide of a pump action shotgun to chamber the next round. My argument that ultimately this boils down to training and performing an action so much that it no longer requires thought, since such situations rarely allows one to actively be thinking about anything but survival of you and those you love. His wife is not unfamiliar with firearms, in fact, she grew up in the Phillipines where if I recall, several years of military service is mandatory for all citizens.

His rebuttal is that in his current situation, time is something that simply is at a high premium, especially with a three year old daughter and the struggle they are faced with trying to make ends meet. Training at the range for such a situation is not something high on the priority list right now.

His argument is that in the case of a semi auto shotgun, all you have to do is point and shoot, nothing else is really required other than pulling the trigger. He expressed his concern about his wife remembering to chamber another round if the situation required her to fire more than once.

I essentially came back stating that, while not a factor if the firearm is well maintained, there are more things that can go wrong with a semi automatic, such as jamming and so on as opposed to a pump action. If the firearm were to malfunction, would his wife be able to diagnose the problem and be able to perform remedial actions in a timely manner? Again that boils down to training, which takes time that he expressly stated he and his wife unfortunately currently just can't seem to spare. The simplicty of a pump action shotgun is one of its greatest virtues, and I feel he may be underestimating what any loving and responsible parent would do to protect their child, especially in a situation that could prove life threatening.

Furthermore, I stated that with any firearm, he should sit down and go over the basic functions of it with his spouse. Armed with this knowledge should help midigate some of the problems he was concerned about. Tactical positioning is also something he should consider in such a event. Leaving a shotgun in the bedroom with his wife, and having her take up a defensive position while covering the only entrypoint into the room would help mitigate the chances of her missing the assailent due to lack of experience while he was out and about securing the rest of the house.

What do you all think? Was I correct in my assessments, was there anything I missed or any problems with my stance on the subject.
Kimio is offline  
Old November 21, 2012, 01:18 PM   #2
BigJimP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2005
Posts: 13,195
Your buddy has a bunch of issues going on here...

but if money is tight, preventing training on a reasonably consistent basis ....I think it makes the choice of a semi-auto shotgun vs a pump a moot point. They both require some training...she has to get the safety off, have some ability to deal with recoil, etc... / so without training, in my view they're both equally poor choices - even though there might be pluses or minuses for each platform in the hands of a trained shooter...the real issue here is training / or lack of it.

To say one is less poor than the others - is a strech in my view.
----------------
Spending time with someone dry firing essentially....is ok / but its not a replacement for range time - and actually firing the weapon.

Length of pull, weight of the gun, what gague, managing recoil, balance of the gun, proper sight picture, etc ....all affect how a shotgun fits the shooter...let alone the effectiveness of the weapon in a defense situation ....and what fits me at 6'5" and 290 lbs vs my wife at 5' 9" and 115 lbs ...is way different !!
-------------
If your buddy thinks he needs a tactical shotgun - he should probably buy what fits him ....and as his budget permits, hopefully get some range time for his wife, if she wants to shoot, then let her pick what she wants for a defensive firearm.

I don't subscribe to the attitude that everyone needs a tactical shotgun ...although I don't dispute they can be effective defensive weapons. Even a shotgun with a 28" barrel - can be used for Defense...although it may not be a "tactical - fighting shotgun" ...its fine for Defense. I might pick a semi-auto over a pump gun ...or even an Over Under...and if I train with it....it'll be fine.

For somebody that doesn't train much ...even a good revolver is a better choice than a lot of weapons / certainly simple to use and fire - vs any shotgun where you'll have to remember to manipulate the safety, etc. before you fire it....
BigJimP is offline  
Old November 21, 2012, 01:34 PM   #3
jmortimer
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: South West Riverside County California
Posts: 2,763
Practice makes perfect. If I were a thug shooting "gangster-style" with my new "nine" I would hate to run-up against a dedicated SASS shooter with a single action revolver.
jmortimer is offline  
Old November 21, 2012, 01:42 PM   #4
ripnbst
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2010
Location: Spring, TX
Posts: 1,552
Racking the action on a shotgun is so second nature to me that I do it as part of the cycle without even thinking about it. Even on the last round as the last round is fired I sharply rack the action back and slam it home, because you can't be sure that was the last round under stress. Train the way you fight and you will fight the way you train. Train like you and your buddies are out on a social gathering at a range and not paying attention to your mechanics might cost you your life. I realize that not every range day is an intense one, an that's fine too, but every now and again it's good to go by yourself or with like minded individuals and take it seriously.
ripnbst is offline  
Old November 21, 2012, 01:47 PM   #5
BigJimP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2005
Posts: 13,195
I get it guys....but the OP is asking about what the best option is, for his buddies wife ---- when he's saying they won't train...or at least that she won't train....
BigJimP is offline  
Old November 21, 2012, 01:51 PM   #6
jmortimer
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: South West Riverside County California
Posts: 2,763
If it comes down to not training, I would not recommend a shotgun in the first place. I would go with a double action revolver. If the semi-auto is always "teed-up" then I would think the semi-auto shotgun is best in this circumstance but if it jams well... Regardless, anyone with a gun needs to have the "Four Rules" burned into their mind practice or not.
jmortimer is offline  
Old November 21, 2012, 01:59 PM   #7
BigJimP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2005
Posts: 13,195
Ok, at least we're all on the same page --- in terms of what he's asking...
BigJimP is offline  
Old November 21, 2012, 07:27 PM   #8
scrubcedar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2012
Location: Southwestern Colorado
Posts: 507
For some reason I've always felt like racking the slide on a pump gun of any sort was the most reflexive way to cock/recock any firarm. No evidence, just my opinion about what came naturally to me. Little or no practice? ,pumps get my vote for being simple,reliable, instinctive. In a shotgun it is so much more effective of a round that it just seems to make the most sense no matter how I look at it.
__________________
Gaily bedight, A gallant knight In sunshine and in shadow, Had journeyed long, Singing a song, In search of El Dorado
scrubcedar is offline  
Old November 21, 2012, 09:26 PM   #9
Noreaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 30, 2011
Location: New England
Posts: 1,449
I teach police officers that have used a Rem 870 for thirty years and they have trouble working the gun at the range. Sportsman and gun people are different and they know a whole lot more then they think they know. For someone who isn't going to train I would suggest a double action revolver as stated above. If a revolver is out of the question then I'd go for a SXS couch gun, (they would only have to learn the tang safety!)
Noreaster is offline  
Old November 22, 2012, 11:27 PM   #10
breakingcontact
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2012
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 736
Shotgun? 20 gauge semi-auto

However...a pistol may be a better choice.

Hopefully she gets involved in the decision.
breakingcontact is offline  
Old November 23, 2012, 05:27 AM   #11
dayman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Location: The Woods
Posts: 1,197
If she's at home alone a lot and is unable to train with a gun, perhaps a doberman (or similar model) would be a better choice than a gun. And, maybe whatever gun she's most comfortable with (presuming there is one) as a backup.
A security system sign, a beware of dog sign, and a deep bark coming from the house should deter pretty much anyone.
__________________
si vis pacem para bellum
dayman is offline  
Old November 23, 2012, 07:25 AM   #12
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,715
If you take the attitude that she won't train with it, then the semi-auto shotgun is the poor choice between semi and pump. This isn't because of how well it shoots, but because of the possibility of needing to clear malfunctions. If something goes wrong with a pump, an untrained person will try to pump it which can free some malfunctions. If it goes wrong with a semi-auto, they tend try just pulling the trigger again and looking at it...which does no good.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old November 23, 2012, 11:20 AM   #13
SHR970
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2011
Posts: 1,427
Quote:
BigJimP originally wrote:but the OP is asking about what the best option is, for his buddies wife ---- when he's saying they won't train...or at least that she won't train
A good dog and a taser.

I believe anyone who won't bother to train is going to have issues with pulling the trigger if the time comes. If that time comes they have picked the wrong time to try and figure things out. They are more likely than not to become a statistic and to provide a gun to someone who shouldn't have one in the first place.

At least if the taser is taken from them, it in and of itself can't be used to kill them or other innocent people.
SHR970 is offline  
Old November 23, 2012, 05:02 PM   #14
wild cat mccane
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 3,596
A large stream canister sized pepper spray.

So much more practical and zero risk to her.
wild cat mccane is offline  
Old November 24, 2012, 12:24 PM   #15
k511
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 461
Benelli.....M4 nuff said
k511 is offline  
Old November 28, 2012, 10:56 PM   #16
boattale
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2012
Posts: 118
Double barrel 20 for the woman who does not want to train.
boattale is offline  
Old November 28, 2012, 11:53 PM   #17
DASHZNT
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 13, 2012
Posts: 179
I use a Saiga 12 guage semi auto with a 20rd drum. The reliability of an AK with the capacity of one as well and the devastation of a shotgun!!

DASHZNT
DASHZNT is offline  
Old November 29, 2012, 05:27 PM   #18
jackpine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2010
Posts: 351
dry fire is free and it only takes 15 minutes a day so either system should work if one puts in there time. Whatever you own get some dummy rounds and dry practice at least 3 times a week and try to live fire once a month and it doesn't matter if it's a NEF single popper or an uber tacticool saiga zombie slayer
jackpine is offline  
Old November 29, 2012, 05:40 PM   #19
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
When my bride refused to practice enough to become proficient with my Mossberg 500 20ga, I put it in the back window of my dumptruck...

I had an old single shot 12 with just enough barrel to keep legal overall length...

As I told her... "If push comes to shoot, just pull this hammer thingy back as you raise the gun and fire as soon as you see the person or animal down the top of the barrel..." Even then I wasn't confident in her ability to actually get a shot off with it. She did finally settle down and train on the pistols and rimfire rifles so she had better choices...

Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 12:46 PM   #20
Old Grump
Member in memoriam
 
Join Date: April 9, 2009
Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in
Posts: 3,144
Quote:
His argument is that in the case of a semi auto shotgun, all you have to do is point and shoot, nothing else is really required other than pulling the trigger. He expressed his concern about his wife remembering to chamber another round if the situation required her to fire more than once.
Your buddy is right but the gun has to be loaded with one in the chamber so all she has to do is push the safety off. She won't be doing reloads or jam clearing drills if the ammo is right and she has done a fer drills just grabbing the loaded gun, safety shoot.

Quote:
His rebuttal is that in his current situation, time is something that simply is at a high premium, especially with a three year old daughter and the struggle they are faced with trying to make ends meet. Training at the range for such a situation is not something high on the priority list right now.
There are the two flies in that ointment. I would never keep a loaded shotgun where a 3 year old could get to it and there is no place a 3 year old can't get to if they have a mind to go there. Same goes for a handgun unless she is willing to wear it from the time she gets up in the morning till she goes to bed at night. Is she isn't or won't or can't train then perhaps an old farmers gun will be better for her. A 16 or 20 gauge single shot break action gun. A large high visibility front sight up front and she is good to go for one fast deadly shot and depending on her mental state a quick second shot if needed.
__________________
Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.
--Daniel Webster--
Old Grump is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 08:41 PM   #21
Lee Lapin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2004
Location: SE NC
Posts: 1,239
Best option for your friend's wife? By far - http://www.corneredcat.com/ And frankly, BOTH of you menfolks will benefit from reading there too.

IF your friend's wife will read it, and take it to heart, it will do her a world of good. Kathy (who goes by pax here) has done some great work on this site.
__________________
Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order!

Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.

Last edited by Lee Lapin; December 1, 2012 at 12:35 PM.
Lee Lapin is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 10:24 PM   #22
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
+1 to The Cornered Cat... In fact I just told my father about it to send the link to gals who seem interested in SD/HD or just firearms in general... It also has chapters regarding guns in a household that includes children as well... Also time to put the link on my facebook wall for my "gal buddies" to check out...

Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old December 26, 2012, 01:21 PM   #23
Pyzon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 17, 2009
Posts: 296
Kimio, your dilemma is thought provoking from a couple of perspectives.

One side of me says that an untrained person, male or female, is unprepared to make ALL the decisions necessary before a gun comes into play. When a 3 year old is added to the scenario, with an absence of training or familiarity, well....Sorry, but no firearm at all may be the better choice. If you choose to devote to a self defense plan, you must also commit enough time to make sure your plan is going to have the desired effect.

Two, malfunctions in self defense are not limited to the mechanical side of the firearm only. Mental malfunctions are the result of a lack of training, and a lack of a repetitive, second nature approach to that goal is the thing that nightmares are made of.

Three, you mention a couple of reasons that training is impossible, namely time and money. How about a more pragmatic approach to home security, one that involves hardening the home perimeter, with better window and door locks, motion detecting lighting outside, common sense things that can work with an every day plan of what to do when things go bump in the night, (or the day). Also, what neighbors can be counted on for help in your absences, programming the police phone number into the phone, etc.. Figure out a way to keep the dirtballs outside and you will not have to fight them inside.

I guess I am getting too old to take unnecessary chances, but home defense is way too important to pretend it is not time consuming.

Good luck in your search for an easy solution, friend.
Pyzon is offline  
Old December 26, 2012, 02:47 PM   #24
Virginian
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2012
Location: Williamsburg, Va.
Posts: 1,528
Do the people on the handgun boards go through anywhere near this much agonizing over what to use?
Virginian is offline  
Old December 26, 2012, 04:27 PM   #25
Old Grump
Member in memoriam
 
Join Date: April 9, 2009
Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in
Posts: 3,144
Quote:
Do the people on the handgun boards go through anywhere near this much agonizing over what to use?
Of course they do.

What is:
most reliable
most accurate
powerful enough
not to powerful
revolver
pistol
make
model
caliber
bullet weight
bullet type
sights
lights
laser
That's off the top of my head, I didn't even cover most of the things like concealability, weight of loaded gun, ease of loading, trigger pull, availability of ammo etc. etc. etc.....
__________________
Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.
--Daniel Webster--
Old Grump is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.12383 seconds with 10 queries