I'm having a senior moment,,, need a bit of help please,,,,,

[wyobohunter]

That was really poor judgement on the part of the instructor. Only rubber guns or guns made inoperable (such as no firing pin or welded shut) should have been used unless of course using guns firing Simunitions.

I respectfully disagree. As somebody else said, we yoosta doit in the military all the time. So long as the weapon has been double or tripple checked physically and visually by all participants and everybody knows this is purely for training purposes...

[Dr_Rich]

I'm just saying. If you're good enough and keep a cool head, then yes, there is a chance you're going to hit a joint/bone that would slow a BG down just enough to maybe get some better placed hits. Lets face it, to go from the hip to shooting in 1.5 seconds is good. But if you have a chance of saving yourself 10 to 20% of that time, don't you think it would be a good idea to take that chance?

I mean, I know people that can get a shot on a 2" target from 7 yards out in .8 seconds. That some real cowboy stuff right there. But I know in the real world, things don't work out like they do on paper. But think about it for a second. You shot the guys lungs out and he's still got 14 seconds before he drops...I fail to see at that point how dumping $5.00 in ammo at him is going to help you out. Yeah, a head shot might do the trick. But thats almost as hard to hit as the knee itself. But you've got a lot more target area going for the legs than the head.

Just makes sense to me to shoot out the tires than to take out the fuel system when trying to stop a car.


Oh, but if the guy with the knife say "Just hangin out" You're pretty much done for, not matter how good you are.

[Rufus T Firefly]

It is estimated that LEO's are only capable of 30% body hits under stress. So you will hit a knee under stress? Ah, Thats like saying Karate is self defense. Karate is a sport. Street fighting is a defense.
Maybe you are that good. I hope you are for your sake.

[hondauto]

I've trained myself to make the shots that count..2 to the chest and if still coming at me.. then 1 to the head.. Hopefully when that time comes for me I will still have it down.

[armsmaster270]

If you hit em just right one shot will work.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...nerDiagram.jpg

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The problem with using real weapons is that while at the beginning of the exercise the guns are triple checked, in police training - someone reloads with live ammo and someone gets shot and maybe killed. Happened a few times.

With the law, they put in a duty mag they had nearby. That might not the case for a controlled military environment.

As far as shooting the knee - forget it. You can beat the charge if you learn the movement patterns.

[Maximus856]

While in CONUS, weapons will never have a magazine anywhere near them unless at a firing range. Coming off the range, the NCO or range coaches will clear the weapons and this is repeated before being turned into an armory. The only people with access to rounds are the armorers, MP's, and those transporting high value equipment. It's punishable under the UCMJ to have rounds on the base unless you fall under one of those catergories. While oversea's it's dependant on the base. Some bases are condition 3, while most of the larger more secure ones are condition 4 and cleared constantly. Almost all training is done with real weapons. Like I said, I don't advocate the practice especially for civilians, but it's just the way it is. If we could afford trainer weapons, I'd be all about it.

[jughead2]

this old man tried it when he was younger. i knew my son was coming. he hit me before i cleared leather. a few friends had commented on how fast i WAS. i wasnt fast enough. it is an eye opener to say the least

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Jim March

Like Maximus explained, your buddy is wrong - the Tueller drill is also about the time to draw the gun.

Sigh ...

No, it isn't. And it is ... sort of.

Dennis Tueller was the training officer for his department. He knew that experienced street cops develop a sort of sixth sense of when a situation is potentially dangerous, and he was looking for a way to help rookies speed up the acquisition of that sense of when to kick the level of readiness up a notch or two. The Tueller drill came out of that desire.

The idea was to teach the rookies a better awareness of how far away someone can be and still be a viable threat.

He started by having a number of his officers draw and (dry) fire from their duty holster at a signal. The average time was 1.5 seconds. He then set up a scenario with a suspect armed with a rubber knife standing with his back to an officer, who had a duty weapon in a holster. At a signal, the suspect would turn, rush the officer, and stab him in the chest. The rush was timed. The drill was to see what distance the suspect could cover in the 1.5 seconds it took the average officer to draw and fire. The distance turned out to be 21 feet.

It is important to note that at NO time did the Tueller drill actually result in a rule that you must shoot a threat if he's less than 21 feet away, and it did NOT in any way establish that you have some mythical "right" to shoot anyone within 21 feet. This drill was developed ONLY for training uniformed patrol officers. The point he used it to drive home was simply that, if a potentially armed suspect is within 21 feet, you (the officer) are already behind the curve, so do SOMETHING to get back ahead of the curve. Put your hand on your weapon and release the retention device. Maybe draw the weapon and hold it at low ready. Maybe take a couple of steps back or sideways. but DO SOMETHING.

The Tueller drill had nothing to do with non-LEO (or even LEO) concealed carry, and since the time for a concealed carrier to draw and fire may be longer, the 21 feet may not be far enough. In fact, when the drill was designed Tueller's department used level 2 retention holsters. He himself has said that, because it takes more time to draw from a level 3 retention holster, the 21 foot distance is no longer adequate.

But the real reason he is upset about the way his drill has been perverted is that so many people (and instructors) have promoted it as a hard-and-fast "rule" that anyone within 21 feet is a fair target. And that wasn't what he intended to convey at all. All the Tueller Drill was intended to do was make officers aware of threat potential within the time they need to react to an attack.

[Daugherty16]

Aguila's point should be reiterated. There is no license to shoot.

However, to add to what he said, it would be another factor in the "reasonable man" analysis that a DA, or a jury, would go through in evaluating whether a shoot was justified. A knife-wielding actor, from a distance of 21 feet or so, is generally considered as having the opportunity to cause grievous bodily injury or death.

His presence with a knife says nothing about intent or ability, both of which are evaluated on their own merits.