The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > The Smithy

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 19, 2010, 07:23 PM   #1
HisSoldier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2007
Location: Oregoncoast
Posts: 1,793
Bronze firing pin?

I have two 1903 .38 Rimless auto hammer piustols, chambered for the nearly extinct .38 Auto. I got them very cheap and they are not in real good condition.


I noticed that the firing pins on both of them had radial cracks showing, so I bought new ones from Numrich. I got the new pins and they looked yellowish, I thought "Must be corrosion treatment coloring them", well, when I pulled the old pins out of the Colts they sure looked like brass or bronze, so I opened the new ones out of the plastic bags and yep, they be yellow bronze or brass!
I am totally mystified, one of the greatest firearms designers in history, perhaps the greatest one, designed these with yellow metal? Now, maybe aluminum bronze I could see, it's very hard and tough, and they would look the same, but I don't think it existed in 1903. Beryllium bronze maybe?
Anyone know about this? It doesn't make sense to me. Thanks,
__________________
CNC produced 416 stainless triggers to replace the plastic triggers on Colt Mustangs, Mustang Plus II's, MK IV Government .380's and Sig P238's and P938's. Plus Colt Mustang hardened 416 guide rods, and Llama .32 and .380 recoil spring buttons, checkered nicely and blued.
HisSoldier is offline  
Old May 19, 2010, 07:30 PM   #2
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,484
Well, it made sense to Colt at the time, although I do not know their logic.
Maybe they were worried about corrosion with smokeless powder and chlorate primers.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old May 19, 2010, 07:40 PM   #3
smith357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 19, 2005
Posts: 270
My 1903 Winchester designed by John Moses Browning came with a bronze firing pin. It broke bout 20 years back and I made a new one from steel.
smith357 is offline  
Old May 19, 2010, 08:27 PM   #4
HisSoldier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2007
Location: Oregoncoast
Posts: 1,793
Quote:
I made a new one from steel
Well, that's an option, it's a simple pin with a milled cutout for the retaining pin. But I'm stuck on the why's of this, maybe there's something I don't know.
__________________
CNC produced 416 stainless triggers to replace the plastic triggers on Colt Mustangs, Mustang Plus II's, MK IV Government .380's and Sig P238's and P938's. Plus Colt Mustang hardened 416 guide rods, and Llama .32 and .380 recoil spring buttons, checkered nicely and blued.
HisSoldier is offline  
Old May 19, 2010, 10:27 PM   #5
Gunplummer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2010
Location: South East Pa.
Posts: 3,364
I have to agree with Jim Watson, but am guessing. The use of non-ferrous metals that moved and contacted ferrous metals (not sure of the spelling on that) was a marketing pitch. When I was a kid, some companies still pushed it with traps they sold and other outdoor products. They claimed the triggers on the traps would not hang up due to corrosion or freezing because the triggers, being brass or bronze, would not freeze to steel. I don't remember if they were brass or bronze, as I was a kid and would not have known the difference anyway.
Gunplummer is offline  
Old May 19, 2010, 10:44 PM   #6
HisSoldier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2007
Location: Oregoncoast
Posts: 1,793
Very interesting stuff. I'm going to load up some .38 Super shells, or I should say, load down, to about 900 FPS with 150 grain bullets, I'm reasonably sure that would be a light load in these guns. When I was in Yuma the sporting goods store guys told me they carried .38 Auto, but I didn't own the guns then.

Since I have the dies it's cheaper and easier to load up some .38 Super than to find .38 Auto, and since I have no .38 Super guns but do have brass it won't be dangerous (accidentally mixing up .38 Super loads in these guns would probably be dangerous.) and I'd like to see how (if) they work.
One is blued and the other is nickle plated.

If anyone else has one of these please look and see if the FP is bronze. Thanks!
__________________
CNC produced 416 stainless triggers to replace the plastic triggers on Colt Mustangs, Mustang Plus II's, MK IV Government .380's and Sig P238's and P938's. Plus Colt Mustang hardened 416 guide rods, and Llama .32 and .380 recoil spring buttons, checkered nicely and blued.
HisSoldier is offline  
Old May 19, 2010, 10:48 PM   #7
MikeG
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2002
Location: Falcon Colorado
Posts: 256
Instead of brass or bronze, could the firing pins be beryllium copper?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium_copper
MikeG is offline  
Old May 19, 2010, 11:24 PM   #8
HisSoldier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2007
Location: Oregoncoast
Posts: 1,793
They could be, I've been doing some study, the old trapdoor Springfields had bronze firing pins, I believe I found a reference to aluminum bronze for firing pins from 1912, They were cast, then hot forged. Many things I thought were kinda new have been around quite a while. Brass would most likely be too soft, though I'm finding out how ignorant I am in this study.
__________________
CNC produced 416 stainless triggers to replace the plastic triggers on Colt Mustangs, Mustang Plus II's, MK IV Government .380's and Sig P238's and P938's. Plus Colt Mustang hardened 416 guide rods, and Llama .32 and .380 recoil spring buttons, checkered nicely and blued.
HisSoldier is offline  
Old May 19, 2010, 11:25 PM   #9
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,928
That's what I was thinking as well. I remember Elmer Keith writing in one of his books about some sixguns that had beryllium copper parts.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old May 20, 2010, 01:26 AM   #10
mete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,575
Apparently beryllium copper was developed about 1900.I remember that there was a Cu/Be firing pin about 1970 but don't remember the firearm.
mete is offline  
Old May 20, 2010, 07:14 PM   #11
Dfariswheel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2001
Posts: 7,477
Charter Arms revolvers had beryllium copper firing pins at one time.
Dfariswheel is offline  
Old May 20, 2010, 07:30 PM   #12
B. Lahey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 17, 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,857
Rather than trying to finangle some downloaded super recipe, you may just want to pick up a few boxes of .38acp ammo from Graf's:

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/...roductId/11948

Cheaper than .45acp ball, don't ask me how those economics work, but I'm glad for it. They shoot nicely in my 03 Pocket Hammer.

My Colt WWI reproduction has a copper-colored firing pin. I don't know if it's actual Cu/Be or just a coating so that it looks like it is, but either way it works and looks neat.
__________________
"A human being is primarily a bag for putting food into; the other functions and faculties may be more godlike, but in point of time they come afterwards."
-George Orwell
B. Lahey is offline  
Old May 20, 2010, 08:32 PM   #13
HisSoldier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2007
Location: Oregoncoast
Posts: 1,793
Is there a hazmat fee for loaded ammo?
__________________
CNC produced 416 stainless triggers to replace the plastic triggers on Colt Mustangs, Mustang Plus II's, MK IV Government .380's and Sig P238's and P938's. Plus Colt Mustang hardened 416 guide rods, and Llama .32 and .380 recoil spring buttons, checkered nicely and blued.
HisSoldier is offline  
Old May 20, 2010, 09:23 PM   #14
Clark500
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2010
Posts: 168
No HAZMAT for loaded ammo.
Clark500 is offline  
Old May 20, 2010, 10:14 PM   #15
James K
Member In Memoriam
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
Those double link Colts, and some others (e.g., the Webley 1913) in that general period, did have bronze firing pins, and the ones you got from Numrich are Colt originals, not repros. I am not sure why brass/bronze was used, but it may have been out of concern for a firing pin rusting in place with the corrosive primers and the powder fouling of the time.

FWIW, I didn't think beryllium copper existed in 1903, but some single actions of the 1960 era had parts like the cylinder stop made from that material. It was touted as a miracle metal, but proved too soft for any part that would take an impact.

On that repro pistol, I suspect the firing pin is of some light weight material used to avoid installing a firing pin block. If a 1911 type with the chamber loaded is dropped on the muzzle, the standard firing pin can creep forward and fire the round. This condition was unknown prior to the use of full length guide rods, since in the original pistol the barrel and slide would move back, absorbing the shock. But with a FLGR, there is nothing to absorb the blow and the gun can fire. California rules say an auto has to be made not to fire under that condition, so Colt and other makers worked up firing pin blocks to prevent a problem caused by the FLGR. So a phoney solution to a non-existent problem caused a real problem and ended up costing every gun buyer money.

Jim

Last edited by James K; May 20, 2010 at 10:24 PM.
James K is offline  
Old May 20, 2010, 11:33 PM   #16
HisSoldier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2007
Location: Oregoncoast
Posts: 1,793
B. Lahey, thanks for the source info, I ordered some.
__________________
CNC produced 416 stainless triggers to replace the plastic triggers on Colt Mustangs, Mustang Plus II's, MK IV Government .380's and Sig P238's and P938's. Plus Colt Mustang hardened 416 guide rods, and Llama .32 and .380 recoil spring buttons, checkered nicely and blued.
HisSoldier is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.05881 seconds with 10 queries