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September 13, 2004, 01:32 AM | #1 |
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Join Date: October 15, 2001
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 369
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Gunsite 223 Lessons Learned
Instructors:
Pat Rogers Bill Dreeland Willie Sampson Equipment Brought: Rifles (at class start): Primary
Secondary
Equipment:
Ammo: Winchester 3131A and PMC 55 grain mix. 223 Personal Lessons learned:
Observed:
I had lots of fun (took "1st looser" in el presidente), shot lots of ammo, learned a lot, and got burned to a crisp. What more could a person ask for? |
October 2, 2004, 03:11 PM | #2 |
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Location: Oregon
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Dude, that was an excellent report. Might I ask why you choose Gun site over Thunder Rance , or the Oregon Firearms Academy?
Did you get a lot of good feed back about gun site? Was anyone using an AK, or other assault style weapons? thanks for the write up. |
December 30, 2004, 11:40 PM | #3 |
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Join Date: July 16, 2001
Location: San Antonio
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>> Dude, that was an excellent report
Yeah, except for forgetting the marksmanship details. It was a carbine *shooting* course afterall ;-) So, what did y'all shoot? What were the course drills/standards/exercises, etc? You mention being "1st looser" [sic] on el presidente. I'll assume this was a 12 round drill fired on 3 Gunsite Option targets (an 18x30 silhouette with 6 inch shoulder cuts, 10 inch X-ring and 14 inch Y-ring), 4 rounds on each with probably a speed/emergency reload. What distance did you shoot at? Did you start slung, with back to the targets, or some other position? Was it shot offhand, or freestyle? What was the "par" score? A good score? Record score? Any other drills shot?!?
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December 31, 2004, 01:34 AM | #4 |
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I must have missed this thread the first time around.
It is a shame that it didn't get more responses, but I am afraid threads like this never get many responses. I enjoyed 223 so much I actually thought about taking it again. I don't know if I will ever have the money to do so however. There is a lot to learn there. One of the big things you learn is that a lot of the stuff you read on internet gun boards is Bravo Sierra.
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You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load. |
December 31, 2004, 08:24 PM | #5 |
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Location: San Antonio
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huh?!?
>> One of the big things you learn is that a lot of the stuff you read on internet gun boards is Bravo Sierra.
444: This is true. However, why do you consider asking for more details on drills and shooting exercises shot at a shooting course to be bovine excrement?
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Fast X, John Buol http://www.HunterShooter.com |
January 1, 2005, 02:37 AM | #6 |
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Join Date: November 20, 2000
Location: Ohio
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I wasn't at the class and I didn't have Pat for an instructor in 223, but I did have Pat in 556: I bet one of the drills that began each days was this one: http://www.personaldefensetraining.c...target=meu.php
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You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load. |
March 27, 2005, 08:13 AM | #7 |
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Join Date: March 26, 2005
Posts: 1
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EOTech Sight
I took the Urban Rifle Course at Thunder Ranch. Used a Wilson UT-15 Urban Tactical rifle (.223), which performed perfectly. Also, I used an EOTech sight, with no problems at all. A gentleman firing next to me all week had a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special rifle (an excellent rifle, by the way), and had trouble with his sights for the first couple of days, and spent a lot of time at the "fiddle table" working with them. Obviously, my groups all week were much better, I was able to acquire my target faster, and liked the trigger pull better on my rifle thatn I did his. He shot my rifle one afternoon, and agreed. He also said he was getting an EOTech when he got back. I have back-up flip-up iron sights, which I used only when iron sights were required (early sighting in drills). For any course such as this, you can't have too many magazines (use good quality) and a LuLu loader. I may mention that I am a police officer in a large metropolitan area, a firearms instructor both at the police department and at the police academy. Can the EOTech sight suddenly fail to work, of course. As can a convential sight break, your radio can cease to function, and the computer in the squad car can go down. That's why redundant systems are in place. Hope that this is of help to anyone contemplating taking such a course.
Last edited by doccop; March 28, 2005 at 11:33 PM. |
March 27, 2005, 10:47 AM | #8 |
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Location: Minnesota (YA-SHURE-YOU-BETCHA)
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Great report!!! I agree with the AimPoint, point you made.
Is it expensive to go here?
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M4A3 Carbine - The worlds most versatile, adaptable, and effective assault rifle. Caliber: 5.56mm NATO Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt Barrel length: 370 mm Rate of fire: 700 - 950 rounds per minute Maximum effective range: 360 m |
March 27, 2005, 12:18 PM | #9 |
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Join Date: July 31, 2001
Posts: 303
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M4A3- yes, training is expensive. The question is, How much is your life worth?
Gunsite will generally run appx $1500 for a 223. You get great facilities and great instruction. My classes there are generally overfilled many months in advance though. I do some 3 day classes wearing my EAG Inc hat in IN, MI, FL and VA, but they are generally filled on the first day of posting (right now all are filled) FYI- you realize that there is no such thing as an M4A3 in the real world- it is only BM marketing hype? There is onlly the M4 Carbine (flat top and 3 round burst) and M4A1 Carbine (flat top and Full auto). Regardless of nomenclature, seek out the best training that you can get. I'll suggest Clint Smith, Randy Cain, Pat Goodale or Jeff Gonzalez. Last edited by Pat Rogers; March 27, 2005 at 01:27 PM. Reason: Omission |
April 19, 2005, 02:30 PM | #10 |
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Join Date: October 15, 2001
Location: Pacific Northwest
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Darkangel:
I had been to gunsite before, for 250, and I like their particular "slant" WRT the philosophy of gunfighting. I have also taken DH1 at Thunder Ranch: Texas, and found the courses grossly similar, though TR had the student doing more "stuff" by day five than Gunsite. Barricade shooting and shooting while moving are the two big ones that stand out. huntershooter: Drills (from memory): box drill, snaps, malfunction, facing movements. I'm sure there were more, but ze memory, ze not so good. Distances: 200 meters and in on the "square" type range drills. Scrambler varied from "close" to "far". So did the other one (Vlie?) El Presidente: Started from Indoor Ready, back to targets. Turn, 2 shots on each of three targets, speed reload, two on each target again. Record score was 6 seconds or so, par for the students was 14-15 seconds, IIRC. I averaged about 15-16, with a few misses. About that BS comment: this was specifically commented on by Pat. He didn't mention any sites by name, but I got a good idea who his "primary suspects" were. *cough*ar15.com*cough* M4A3: I spent roughly $3k for the whole deal. I drove down from Washington State (3 days down, 3 back up), so bear that in mind. I didn't try to clean out the Pro Shop, and I didn't need lots of gunsmithing. YMMV. |
April 20, 2005, 03:15 PM | #11 |
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"One student used the stock handguards"
That was I. Perhaps my memory fails, but as I recall the El Presidente we did in this course was the modification known as the Demi Presidente: Start at low ready facing targets, on signal two rounds COM each target, reload, 1 round head each target. Distance: 15 yards. Unknown sailor: regards and best wishes
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April 20, 2005, 10:29 PM | #12 |
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Join Date: October 15, 2001
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 369
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How was the drive back home? I took your suggestion, and went the highway 93 route. It took about 9 hours off my drive.
Stay safe, and I hope to see you again should I venture to Gunsite in the future... |
April 20, 2005, 11:45 PM | #13 | |
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Location: DFW Area
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Quote:
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April 21, 2005, 08:48 AM | #14 |
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Join Date: October 15, 2001
Location: Pacific Northwest
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Agreed, but normally you can tell what the mode of failure is, and know what needs fixing.
Red dot scopes either work, or they don't, and the EOthing seems to fail in much larger numbers than Aimpoint. I didn't want to take that chance, given that my paid for training time was on the line. I still have the EOthing, and still use it. I just don't expect it to be as robust as the Aimpoint, based on the experience of those with far more trigger time than me. /looks over at Pat Rogers |
April 24, 2005, 03:37 PM | #15 |
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I still think that's an over-the-top reaction.
Using that logic, anytime I hear that any equipment malfunctions without a known cause, I'd have to cross it off my list as no longer trustworthy. If an item has a reputation for being unreliable that's one thing. Simply hearing of one that stopped working without a known cause is not evidence that it's unreliable. Even the observation that brand A is less robust than brand B doesn't mean that one can label brand B as untrustworthy. On second thought--cancel all that... You're right, you need to ditch that EOtech. If you send it to me for free, I'll pay shipping as a show of good will. |
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