Apparently Cabelas thinks its illegal for me to feed my rifle..... - Page 2

natman · November 29, 2010, 01:24 PM

When a young person asks for handgun or interchangeable ammo, I ask them "What are you shooting this in?" in a conversational tone. If they say it's for a rifle, I ask which model. Then I card them. If they're over 21, they get the ammo. If they are over 18, but less than 21 they get the ammo if they knew which model rifle they own.

Dustin0 · November 29, 2010, 02:07 PM

Is the a local gun store you can buy your ammo at and not chain store like Cabelas or wal-mart. They might know whats going alot better than those types of stores. OR you could just have someone over 21 buy it for you.

Glenn E. Meyer · November 29, 2010, 02:38 PM

Is that legal? Somebody with expert opinion chime in. If it's not, then we need to withdraw that post.

full.tang.halo · November 29, 2010, 03:14 PM

I'm not an expert, and logic rarely applies with regards to gun laws, but, I don't see how it could be illegal for person "B" to buy something for person "A", that person "A" could legally buy from a correctly informed retailer w/o person "B".

kx592 · November 29, 2010, 03:40 PM

Common sense would tell me that having person A buy it for person B is the same rule as for having A buy a case of beer for B, A being 21, B being 18-20.

hogdogs · November 29, 2010, 03:51 PM

Bein' a born and bred smarty pants, and a head full of white hair, I have an answer for everything...

At walmart they ask "Rifle or Handgun" when I am buying .22LR...

Some times I say, "Heck I dunno it is for some kids out front that asked me to buy it..." Other times i say "It is for a MACHINE GUN, is that a rifle?"

And more recently I say "Neither, they are for a booby trap I made out of galvanized pipe"

Brent

full.tang.halo · November 29, 2010, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kx592

Common sense would tell me that having person A buy it for person B is the same rule as for having A buy a case of beer for B, A being 21, B being 18-20.

The problem with that line of thinking is that beer is illegal for person B to have because he is under 21. In the presented situation the ".357 magnum ammunition" is completely legal for the OP to own & buy as he is both over the age of 18 and the ammunition is to be used for a rifle. The OP could legally buy it all day and night if the seller was properly informed of the law. Working around a sellers ignorance of the law does not = breaking the law.

kx592 · November 29, 2010, 04:33 PM

I fully understand and agree but seems to me that my example is how the employee is treating this situation, except the law is slightly different making it legal. My point being that the 21 buying for minor is illegal and buying ammo for a pistol for a "minor" with those intentions has to be illegal as well.

carguychris · November 29, 2010, 05:02 PM

I'm going to put my usual end-of-post mandatory disclaimer up front for this one:

I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV.

This is not official legal advice.

OK, here goes...

Quote:

Is that legal? Somebody with expert opinion chime in. If it's not, then we need to withdraw that post.

I'm not necessarily an expert, but upon reading 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), it seems to be legal.

Quote:

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or
deliver--
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee
knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years
of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun
or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual
who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less
than twenty-one years of age;...

(emphasis mine)

First, the law does not address nonlicensees, and when I searched the entirety of 18 USC 922 and 923 and 27 CFR 478 for the term "twenty-one" or "21", this paragraph is the only place it comes up. There doesn't seem to be any federal law prohibiting nonlicensees from selling handgun ammo to people between the ages of 18 and 21. The law conspicuously addresses licensees only.

Second, the law says "...sell or deliver...", not "...cause to be delivered..." as with other federal laws pertaining to firearms. Therefore, only the immediate transaction between the licensee and the nonlicensed recipient of the ammo appears to fall under the scope of the law; once the ammo has changed hands, the licensee is in the clear, even if the recipient were to immediately turn around and hand the ammo to an 18-year-old.

Caveat emptor, YMMV, etc.

MLeake · November 29, 2010, 05:47 PM

... with AIMSurplus.

I had placed my first order with them over the weekend, for some bulk 9mm.

Received an email this morning, saying that for my first purchase with them, I would need to provide some ID.

I found this odd, so I called their sales number. The guy on the other end explained that several prosecutors have started bringing suits and/or setting up stings against companies for failing to verify the ages of ammo purchasers. (This ties in with what Tom Servo posted, earlier in this thread.)

The guy at AIM said that the other online distributors will probably start doing something similar, when they get hit with similar suits or complaints.

Just ducky...

Anyway, I'm not a huge fan of giving out copies of my DL, or MIL ID. Anything with numbers that can be used for identity theft is not something I like to give out. Luckily, AIM accepted a copy of my concealed permit. Pretty sure identity thieves don't use those (how would they explain having THAT number, but not a DL or SSN?).

Problem solved, but it will be interesting to see how many other permutations of the same basic issue come up in the near future.

roy reali · November 30, 2010, 08:40 AM

Quote:

At walmart they ask "Rifle or Handgun" when I am buying .22LR...

Not too long ago I purchased a box of 28 gauge shells at WalMart. The checkout gal asked me if it was for a rifle or handgun. I said it was for a shotgun. She looked puzzled for a moment and then rang me up.

Where can I get a 28 gauge handgun?

Glenn E. Meyer · December 1, 2010, 02:40 PM

Wait for Taurus?

markj · December 1, 2010, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Where can I get a 28 gauge handgun

Only in 410 for now.....

SPUSCG · December 1, 2010, 10:50 PM

has thompson center made a NFA contender barrel?

Swindler1 · December 1, 2010, 11:48 PM

load your own

KBP75 · December 3, 2010, 06:19 PM

If you are really upset... Take your rifle in with your receipt and tell them you want to return the rifle, since they will not sell you ammo for it! Maybe this will get their brains working.(might not, but it would be great to see the expressions on their faces!) THIS IS WHAT I WOULD DO. Just a thought. Ken

ncpatriot · December 3, 2010, 11:37 PM

Yes, call corporate HQ and explain to them. For sure, someone there will know better and inform the manager. He's probably just trying to err on the side of caution, but you should still push the issue in the proper way. Or if you know a local LEO who would go with you & explain your legality to manager, that may work too.

johnwilliamson062 · December 5, 2010, 12:09 AM

Remember it can be store policy along with state law. They can deny you a purchase because of your age. People under 21 are not part of a protected class.
I believe wal-mart has such a corporate policy nation wide.

SPUSCG · December 6, 2010, 07:27 PM

Well I ordered 2 savage mark 2 magazines sent to my house, it said on website must be 18 to buy. So i did. Now i got an email from ups saying someone over 21 needs to sighn for it tomorrow

Wow this under 21 thing sucks. At least im not down in louisiana anymore, in that place you cant even buy lottery tickets under 21.....

By the way i went to cabelas to buy 22lr, and said "rifle" when asked, and that cashier sold it to me, no problems. So i guess i just ran into bad employees, not a bad store.

woodguru · December 20, 2010, 12:50 PM

I was going to suggest the same thing Al Norris said about talking to the corporate. Explain the situation about how the store manager said when you bought the rifle from them it would not be a problem (as it shouldn't be) and now they are refusing even though they have reason to believe you are using it in a rifle.

Give them the store and name of the manager and ask that they contact that manager and clarify what their latitudes for sales are.

That has become my first resort when I have a problem with a big chain operation, usually just invoking with the store manager that you will take it up with corporate has them dancing to a different tune as they don't want the head office associating them with being dimwitted. You can get mid level peons off their high horses in a flash when they think it's going to be taken over their heads and they are in the wrong.

Otherwise when you are 21 it won't be a problem.

Try the .357/rifle thing with each clerk, you might get one who doesn't question it.

November 29, 2010, 02:38 PM	#28
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Is that legal? Somebody with expert opinion chime in. If it's not, then we need to withdraw that post. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

November 29, 2010, 05:47 PM	#35
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Related issue came up today for me... ... with AIMSurplus. I had placed my first order with them over the weekend, for some bulk 9mm. Received an email this morning, saying that for my first purchase with them, I would need to provide some ID. I found this odd, so I called their sales number. The guy on the other end explained that several prosecutors have started bringing suits and/or setting up stings against companies for failing to verify the ages of ammo purchasers. (This ties in with what Tom Servo posted, earlier in this thread.) The guy at AIM said that the other online distributors will probably start doing something similar, when they get hit with similar suits or complaints. Just ducky... Anyway, I'm not a huge fan of giving out copies of my DL, or MIL ID. Anything with numbers that can be used for identity theft is not something I like to give out. Luckily, AIM accepted a copy of my concealed permit. Pretty sure identity thieves don't use those (how would they explain having THAT number, but not a DL or SSN?). Problem solved, but it will be interesting to see how many other permutations of the same basic issue come up in the near future.

December 1, 2010, 02:40 PM	#37
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Wait for Taurus? __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

December 1, 2010, 10:50 PM	#39
SPUSCG Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2008 Posts: 3,004	has thompson center made a NFA contender barrel? __________________ Check us out: www.imfdb.org. Fun site for people who love gun movies.

December 3, 2010, 06:19 PM	#41
KBP75 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2010 Posts: 316	Apparently Cabelas thinks its illegal for me to feed my rifle..... If you are really upset... Take your rifle in with your receipt and tell them you want to return the rifle, since they will not sell you ammo for it! Maybe this will get their brains working.(might not, but it would be great to see the expressions on their faces!) THIS IS WHAT I WOULD DO. Just a thought. Ken

November 29, 2010, 01:24 PM	#26
natman Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2008 Posts: 2,607	When a young person asks for handgun or interchangeable ammo, I ask them "What are you shooting this in?" in a conversational tone. If they say it's for a rifle, I ask which model. Then I card them. If they're over 21, they get the ammo. If they are over 18, but less than 21 they get the ammo if they knew which model rifle they own.

November 29, 2010, 02:07 PM	#27
Dustin0 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2008 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 701	Is the a local gun store you can buy your ammo at and not chain store like Cabelas or wal-mart. They might know whats going alot better than those types of stores. OR you could just have someone over 21 buy it for you.

November 29, 2010, 03:14 PM	#29
full.tang.halo Junior member Join Date: April 16, 2009 Location: Brooksville, FL Posts: 161	I'm not an expert, and logic rarely applies with regards to gun laws, but, I don't see how it could be illegal for person "B" to buy something for person "A", that person "A" could legally buy from a correctly informed retailer w/o person "B".

November 29, 2010, 03:40 PM	#30
kx592 Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2009 Posts: 645	Common sense would tell me that having person A buy it for person B is the same rule as for having A buy a case of beer for B, A being 21, B being 18-20.

November 29, 2010, 03:51 PM	#31
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Bein' a born and bred smarty pants, and a head full of white hair, I have an answer for everything... At walmart they ask "Rifle or Handgun" when I am buying .22LR... Some times I say, "Heck I dunno it is for some kids out front that asked me to buy it..." Other times i say "It is for a MACHINE GUN, is that a rifle?" And more recently I say "Neither, they are for a booby trap I made out of galvanized pipe" Brent

November 29, 2010, 04:33 PM	#33
kx592 Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2009 Posts: 645	I fully understand and agree but seems to me that my example is how the employee is treating this situation, except the law is slightly different making it legal. My point being that the 21 buying for minor is illegal and buying ammo for a pistol for a "minor" with those intentions has to be illegal as well.

December 1, 2010, 11:48 PM	#40
Swindler1 Member Join Date: December 25, 2007 Posts: 38	load your own

December 3, 2010, 11:37 PM	#42
ncpatriot Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2009 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 371	Yes, call corporate HQ and explain to them. For sure, someone there will know better and inform the manager. He's probably just trying to err on the side of caution, but you should still push the issue in the proper way. Or if you know a local LEO who would go with you & explain your legality to manager, that may work too. __________________ Remember the American heroes of Flight 93.

December 5, 2010, 12:09 AM	#43
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	Remember it can be store policy along with state law. They can deny you a purchase because of your age. People under 21 are not part of a protected class. I believe wal-mart has such a corporate policy nation wide.

December 6, 2010, 07:27 PM	#44
SPUSCG Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2008 Posts: 3,004	Well I ordered 2 savage mark 2 magazines sent to my house, it said on website must be 18 to buy. So i did. Now i got an email from ups saying someone over 21 needs to sighn for it tomorrow Wow this under 21 thing sucks. At least im not down in louisiana anymore, in that place you cant even buy lottery tickets under 21..... By the way i went to cabelas to buy 22lr, and said "rifle" when asked, and that cashier sold it to me, no problems. So i guess i just ran into bad employees, not a bad store. __________________ Check us out: www.imfdb.org. Fun site for people who love gun movies.

December 20, 2010, 12:50 PM	#45
woodguru Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 2010 Location: Placerville, Ca Posts: 589	I was going to suggest the same thing Al Norris said about talking to the corporate. Explain the situation about how the store manager said when you bought the rifle from them it would not be a problem (as it shouldn't be) and now they are refusing even though they have reason to believe you are using it in a rifle. Give them the store and name of the manager and ask that they contact that manager and clarify what their latitudes for sales are. That has become my first resort when I have a problem with a big chain operation, usually just invoking with the store manager that you will take it up with corporate has them dancing to a different tune as they don't want the head office associating them with being dimwitted. You can get mid level peons off their high horses in a flash when they think it's going to be taken over their heads and they are in the wrong. Otherwise when you are 21 it won't be a problem. Try the .357/rifle thing with each clerk, you might get one who doesn't question it. __________________ Fiction is harder to write than the truth, fiction has to make sense, the truth can be unbelievable.