45-70 Primer fires, Powder does not?

Canach5 · March 26, 2010, 08:08 PM

I have the H&R replica 1873 Springfield. Maybe 1 shot out of 10 the primer fires and pushes the bullet (300LRN) 1/2 inch into barrel. The powder is "clumped". It looks almost like moister problem. But I have tried 3 different batches of powder (2 of IMR 3031 & 1 IMR 4198) and 2 different batches of primers (Federal & CCI LR).
Has anyone ran into this problem?

Scorch · March 26, 2010, 08:38 PM

What kind of lube was used on the bullets?

snuffy · March 27, 2010, 01:16 AM

Quote:

I have the H&R replica 1873 Springfield. Maybe 1 shot out of 10 the primer fires and pushes the bullet (300LRN) 1/2 inch into barrel. The powder is "clumped". It looks almost like moister problem. But I have tried 3 different batches of powder (2 of IMR 3031 & 1 IMR 4831) and 2 different batches of primers (Federal & CCI LR).
Has anyone ran into this problem?

You're using IMR 4831 in a trapdoor springfield? Yowser, that must kick! You DO know that rifle has to be loaded extremely light?

I have the same rifle, in a Calvary carbine model. I only load very light charges of fast shotshell/pistol powders behind 350 lead bullets, or holy black.

My NEF buffalo 45-70 can handle much hotter loads,k but I never considered trying IMR-4831 in it. Where did you find a load for that?

Jim Watson · March 27, 2010, 07:50 AM

Strange, 3031 is one of the standard powders for the caliber.
What is your load? Not grains weight, I don't have a manual handy. Are you at the maximum load, starting load, in between, or way reduced?

4831 is kind of a specialty powder in .45-70 and if you don't get it right within narrow limits, it is not going to work well. I suspect a 300 grain bullet is too light for it. But I am far away from my reference books.

Edward429451 · March 27, 2010, 10:47 AM

If all the ammo is like that I suspect the lube also. Let me guess, in the ammo box they were bullet up?

Store lead bullets nose down so if lube migrates it goes out of the case and not into it. Keep it cool also/

Canach5 · March 27, 2010, 11:58 AM

That should have been IMR 4198.

I am using Meister 300gr cast Flat Point and 42 gr of IMR 3031 when the problem started. That should have been a very light load.

The lube is not soft or "oily".

I have had the rifle for over 25 years and always shot the Serria 300gr jacketed bullets with IMR 3031 and CCI #200 primers. Never had any problems until two hours after loading the lead bullets.

Edward429451 · March 27, 2010, 12:27 PM

Did they get hot? Cuold the lube have melted?

snuffy · March 27, 2010, 12:53 PM

Canach5, I had the same thing happen once with some surplus WC-846,(which is basically BLC-2), loaded with lead 350 grainers in my buffalo classic. Erratic performance from squibs barely making it clear of the barrel, to complete failure-to-fire. Any other book loads with IMR-4895, 3031, and 4198 were very consistent.

The WC-846 was okay in other .223 and .308 loads, so that wasn't the problem. I never tried to get it to work again, but if I were to, I would use a magnum primer.

wxl · March 27, 2010, 02:41 PM

Not sure it makes any difference which powder is better. Whether it was near max load or slightly below starting load, if the primer really went off, THE POWDER DID NOT IGNITE. Unless lube contaminated both powders, it would be strange coincidence fot 2 different powders to go bad unless old and storage issues. Maybe the primers did not actually go off with GOOD IGNITION and we have bad primers that 'fizzled' but not hot enough to set off the 2 different powders

Canach5 · March 27, 2010, 02:58 PM

The bullet goes about 1/2 to 3/4 inch into the lands. It will do the same without the powder. I tried without the powder, just to be sure it was the primer pushing the bullet forward. After removing the bullet, the lube is still intact.
A friend told me at the range today that a light charge and a light bullet without a heavy crimp, will cause this problem. I had almost no crimp on these because I understood that gave better accuracy. He said it works with black powder 45-70 but not shooting smokeless.
I am going to try that and then try magnum primers.

steveno · March 27, 2010, 04:03 PM

with the 300 grain bullets I had a similar problem in a Ruger #1S and after switching to 2400 the problem went away. with 405 grain and heavier bullets there wasn't a problem with 3031 and H4895. this was using standard primers so maybe magnum primers might work with 300 grain bullets.

Edward429451 · March 28, 2010, 02:43 AM

Heck yes not having a crimp will affect ignition. It may account for the powder absorbing moisture and being clumpy also.

snuffy · March 28, 2010, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Heck yes not having a crimp will affect ignition. It may account for the powder absorbing moisture and being clumpy also.

Horse apples! 1, lack of a crimp doesn't matter if you have a tight bullet, neck tension is all you need. 2, powder does NOT absorb moisture. I don't know where that myth got started!

If the bullet is so loose that atmospheric moisture could get past the bullet, it could certainly be why the powder failled to ignite.

The only crimp I put on my lead loaded 45-70's is just enough to remove the belling I do to make sure the bullet isn't shaved by the case mouth. Since they're going to be fired in a single shot, they don't need a heavy crimp.

Out of curiosity, I just put 42 grains of 3031 in a 45-70 case. It leaves very little room on top, hardly a small charge of powder. You're right, it is below the starting load in my Lyman 48th for the trapdoor springfield,(ranges from 48.0 to 53.0 a compressed load), for the Lyman 292 grain lead.

Edward429451 · March 28, 2010, 05:17 PM

My understanding is that a crimp stops the bullet from moving (under recoil) while pressure builds and overcomes the crimp, allowing more consistent ignition and velocities. In a bottleneck cartridge crimp would not matter if sufficient neck tension but in a straight wall cartridge I think it does matter for consistent ignition.

and if powder will not absorb moisture then why if I leave powder in the measure overnight it always will read heavy from the previous days setting?
Every time

elwaynum1 · March 29, 2010, 01:06 PM

I just had this same thing happen to me yesterday at the range for the SECOND TIME!! I haven't got a chance to inspect the second instance, but with a closer look at the first cartridge it appeared the primer did go off which lodged the bullet about an inch or two into the lands. Upon removal of the casing the powder (51 grains of IMR 4831 topped off with 150 grain Sierra SBT: Data taken from 2nd Edition of Lee Reloading Manual) was spilling out everywhere. When I got home to inspect the primer I found more powder stuck in the casing which appeared to be extremely clumped together, so much so I had to pick at it with a paper clip to get it all out.

Now, from the initial glances of the second instance, the powder appears to be even more clumped than the first..so much so none of it comes out without poking at it.

The rifle is a 7mm Remington Magnum, and I do not apply crimps to the cartridges.

1st Instance: 150 gr Sierra SBT, 51 gr IMR 4831, CCI BR
2nd Instance: 140 gr Sierra SBT, 59.8 gr IMR 4831, CCI BR
Lube used: Lee Reloading Lube

snuffy · March 29, 2010, 06:08 PM

Quote:

and if powder will not absorb moisture then why if I leave powder in the measure overnight it always will read heavy from the previous days setting?
Every time

It's because the powder has had time to compact. Not because it has sucked moisture from the air.

Even IF it DID gather moisture from the air, it wouldn't be enough to cause it to clump up.

kraigwy · March 29, 2010, 07:04 PM

I had the same problem with my 416 Rigby and 3031 trying to make light loads.

More misfires then not. Using Winchester LR Mag primers. Nosler 400 grain jacketed bullets.

So I tried Trail Boss powder, 30 grns files the case just short of the base of the bullet. Same bullet, same primer, and ZERO PROBLEMS.

They all go off, and accurate too. Kicks about like my wifes 243. 1360 FPS, and fun to shoot.

Trailboss gave me the same results with my 375 H&H, positive ignition and mild shooting.

Canach5 · April 2, 2010, 09:31 PM

It seems as if my problem was not old powder or primers as I had first thought. I was being "super" careful to not get a hot load. Was only going to "plink" with and wanted a light load. I was loading below the minimum for most manuals.
It now looks like the powder charge was just to light. Increasing the power charge to above the minimums seems to have "fixed" the problem.
The groups have decreased by several inches and no longer have several grains of unburnt powder in the chamber. I will know for sure after about 100 rounds.
I guess the 45-70 just wasn't designed as a "plinking rifle"

Thanks for all the replies.

March 27, 2010, 11:58 AM	#6
Canach5 Junior Member Join Date: March 22, 2010 Location: Lexington, South Carolina Posts: 5	45-70 Primer fires, Powder does not? That should have been IMR 4198. I am using Meister 300gr cast Flat Point and 42 gr of IMR 3031 when the problem started. That should have been a very light load. The lube is not soft or "oily". I have had the rifle for over 25 years and always shot the Serria 300gr jacketed bullets with IMR 3031 and CCI #200 primers. Never had any problems until two hours after loading the lead bullets.

March 27, 2010, 12:53 PM	#8
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	Canach5, I had the same thing happen once with some surplus WC-846,(which is basically BLC-2), loaded with lead 350 grainers in my buffalo classic. Erratic performance from squibs barely making it clear of the barrel, to complete failure-to-fire. Any other book loads with IMR-4895, 3031, and 4198 were very consistent. The WC-846 was okay in other .223 and .308 loads, so that wasn't the problem. I never tried to get it to work again, but if I were to, I would use a magnum primer. __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

March 27, 2010, 02:41 PM	#9
wxl Member Join Date: November 8, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 81	Not sure it makes any difference which powder is better. Whether it was near max load or slightly below starting load, if the primer really went off, THE POWDER DID NOT IGNITE. Unless lube contaminated both powders, it would be strange coincidence fot 2 different powders to go bad unless old and storage issues. Maybe the primers did not actually go off with GOOD IGNITION and we have bad primers that 'fizzled' but not hot enough to set off the 2 different powders Last edited by wxl; March 27, 2010 at 04:20 PM.

March 27, 2010, 02:58 PM	#10
Canach5 Junior Member Join Date: March 22, 2010 Location: Lexington, South Carolina Posts: 5	45-70 Primer fires, Powder does not? The bullet goes about 1/2 to 3/4 inch into the lands. It will do the same without the powder. I tried without the powder, just to be sure it was the primer pushing the bullet forward. After removing the bullet, the lube is still intact. A friend told me at the range today that a light charge and a light bullet without a heavy crimp, will cause this problem. I had almost no crimp on these because I understood that gave better accuracy. He said it works with black powder 45-70 but not shooting smokeless. I am going to try that and then try magnum primers. Last edited by Canach5; March 27, 2010 at 03:46 PM.

March 29, 2010, 01:06 PM	#15
elwaynum1 Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 85	I just had this same thing happen to me yesterday at the range for the SECOND TIME!! I haven't got a chance to inspect the second instance, but with a closer look at the first cartridge it appeared the primer did go off which lodged the bullet about an inch or two into the lands. Upon removal of the casing the powder (51 grains of IMR 4831 topped off with 150 grain Sierra SBT: Data taken from 2nd Edition of Lee Reloading Manual) was spilling out everywhere. When I got home to inspect the primer I found more powder stuck in the casing which appeared to be extremely clumped together, so much so I had to pick at it with a paper clip to get it all out. Now, from the initial glances of the second instance, the powder appears to be even more clumped than the first..so much so none of it comes out without poking at it. The rifle is a 7mm Remington Magnum, and I do not apply crimps to the cartridges. 1st Instance: 150 gr Sierra SBT, 51 gr IMR 4831, CCI BR 2nd Instance: 140 gr Sierra SBT, 59.8 gr IMR 4831, CCI BR Lube used: Lee Reloading Lube Last edited by elwaynum1; March 29, 2010 at 02:44 PM.

March 26, 2010, 08:08 PM	#1
Canach5 Junior Member Join Date: March 22, 2010 Location: Lexington, South Carolina Posts: 5	45-70 Primer fires, Powder does not? I have the H&R replica 1873 Springfield. Maybe 1 shot out of 10 the primer fires and pushes the bullet (300LRN) 1/2 inch into barrel. The powder is "clumped". It looks almost like moister problem. But I have tried 3 different batches of powder (2 of IMR 3031 & 1 IMR 4198) and 2 different batches of primers (Federal & CCI LR). Has anyone ran into this problem? Last edited by Canach5; March 27, 2010 at 11:47 AM.

March 26, 2010, 08:38 PM	#2
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	What kind of lube was used on the bullets? __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

March 27, 2010, 07:50 AM	#4
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Strange, 3031 is one of the standard powders for the caliber. What is your load? Not grains weight, I don't have a manual handy. Are you at the maximum load, starting load, in between, or way reduced? 4831 is kind of a specialty powder in .45-70 and if you don't get it right within narrow limits, it is not going to work well. I suspect a 300 grain bullet is too light for it. But I am far away from my reference books.

March 27, 2010, 10:47 AM	#5
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	If all the ammo is like that I suspect the lube also. Let me guess, in the ammo box they were bullet up? Store lead bullets nose down so if lube migrates it goes out of the case and not into it. Keep it cool also/

March 27, 2010, 12:27 PM	#7
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Did they get hot? Cuold the lube have melted?

March 27, 2010, 04:03 PM	#11
steveno Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Minden , Nebraska Posts: 1,407	with the 300 grain bullets I had a similar problem in a Ruger #1S and after switching to 2400 the problem went away. with 405 grain and heavier bullets there wasn't a problem with 3031 and H4895. this was using standard primers so maybe magnum primers might work with 300 grain bullets.

March 28, 2010, 02:43 AM	#12
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Heck yes not having a crimp will affect ignition. It may account for the powder absorbing moisture and being clumpy also.

March 28, 2010, 05:17 PM	#14
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	My understanding is that a crimp stops the bullet from moving (under recoil) while pressure builds and overcomes the crimp, allowing more consistent ignition and velocities. In a bottleneck cartridge crimp would not matter if sufficient neck tension but in a straight wall cartridge I think it does matter for consistent ignition. and if powder will not absorb moisture then why if I leave powder in the measure overnight it always will read heavy from the previous days setting? Every time

March 29, 2010, 07:04 PM	#17
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	I had the same problem with my 416 Rigby and 3031 trying to make light loads. More misfires then not. Using Winchester LR Mag primers. Nosler 400 grain jacketed bullets. So I tried Trail Boss powder, 30 grns files the case just short of the base of the bullet. Same bullet, same primer, and ZERO PROBLEMS. They all go off, and accurate too. Kicks about like my wifes 243. 1360 FPS, and fun to shoot. Trailboss gave me the same results with my 375 H&H, positive ignition and mild shooting. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

April 2, 2010, 09:31 PM	#18
Canach5 Junior Member Join Date: March 22, 2010 Location: Lexington, South Carolina Posts: 5	45-70 Primer fires, Powder does not? It seems as if my problem was not old powder or primers as I had first thought. I was being "super" careful to not get a hot load. Was only going to "plink" with and wanted a light load. I was loading below the minimum for most manuals. It now looks like the powder charge was just to light. Increasing the power charge to above the minimums seems to have "fixed" the problem. The groups have decreased by several inches and no longer have several grains of unburnt powder in the chamber. I will know for sure after about 100 rounds. I guess the 45-70 just wasn't designed as a "plinking rifle" Thanks for all the replies. Last edited by Canach5; April 2, 2010 at 09:37 PM.