Purchasing a handgun for someone else

fzammetti · November 13, 2011, 02:17 AM

Hi folks... I've been searching for over an hour now trying to get an answer myself but haven't been able to find it... any guidance would be appreciated.

I'm a current CCW holder in Pennsylvania and my wife is in the process of getting hers. I'd like to go to a gun show tomorrow and surprise her with the carry gun she liked when we check them out today, but I'm unclear on whether I can purchase it and give it to her.

To be clear, there's no issue with *me* purchasing it... I in fact passed a background check just this Monday to purchase a new carbine

And I've purchased at shows before... in fact, my intention is to purchase from the same vendor I bought my own carry gun from.

But, I'm unclear whether its legal for me to purchase it, which would make it registered to me, and give it to her to carry. I *think* the answer is yes, since during my research I haven't turned up anything that would seem to say otherwise, but I also haven't been able to find anything that explicitly seems to cover this situation, which is usually what I like to see to be sure my legal bases are covered

Thanks all,
Frank

docnyt · November 13, 2011, 02:33 AM

Are guns even registered in PA?

If you look at ATF guidelines, purchasing a firearm as a gift is allowed.

ligonierbill · November 13, 2011, 02:36 AM

No. No gun registration in PA. The OP may be thinking it's his name on the background check form.

Uncle Buck · November 13, 2011, 08:01 AM

I thought that PA had a rule that even a private transfer of a handgun required a background check?

If this rule does not apply to PA, then you should be good to go under the gifting portion of the application. (If I remember correctly, it is on the back of the form.)

I had almost the same question a few months ago when my sister tried to buy a shotgun for her son.

**Aguila Blanca** · November 13, 2011, 09:43 AM

Whether or not Pennsylvania requires a background check to transfer a handgun has nothing to do with whether or not it's legal for a husband to purchase a firearm and then give it to his wife. As long as the wife is not a prohibited person, that is legal under both Federal and Pennsylvania law.

The gift to the wife may require a second transfer through an FFL -- I'm not that "up" on PA state law. I do know that the wife does not require a concealed carry license to own a handgun in PA. Except for residents of Philadelphia, in fact, unlicensed open carry is legal (on foot, but not in a motor vehicle).

fzammetti · November 13, 2011, 10:30 AM

Right, I know there's no permit for ownership or even open carry, just for concealed carry... which of course is really the goal here

Its funny, I knew as I typed the word "register" initially that I probably wasn't using the right term... I didn't think we have a registration requirement here... but, I was unsure because as ligonierbill said, my name is on the background check at the time of purchase and I was thinking that in a sense "registered" the gun to me... that's where my concern was... and I guess still is a little, but...

...it seems like what everyone is saying essentially is that the background check is meant to ensure the purchaser is ok to own the gun, but there's nothing that says they can't turn around and give the gun to someone that would themselves fail the background check, is that right? My wife could certainly pass with no problem of course, I'm just talking generally. And if that understanding is correct, although it would seem to be a big hole in the law to me, then I should be fine to buy it and give it to her to carry (once she has her CCW of course). That sound right?

Thanks guys,
Frank

publius42 · November 13, 2011, 11:38 AM

You can't sell or give a firearm to a person known to you to be prohibited from owning firearms.

Quote:

(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—
(1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(2) is a fugitive from justice;
(3) is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
(5) who, being an alien—

...

Blah, blah, blah. It goes on and on like that, and is very thorough, even excluding extraterrestrials, as you can see.

brickeyee · November 13, 2011, 01:20 PM

As long as YOU USE YOUR money ad it is actually gift you should be GTG.

Check if their is any state requirement to transfer it to your wife.

The back of the 4473 is pretty clear.

fzammetti · November 13, 2011, 02:30 PM

Well, its done: my wife has a brand-spankin' new Ruger LC9 to play with

As it turns out she just came to the gun show with me (the kids wanted MREs anyway!) so she just did the background check herself anyway. I talked to the dealer a bit though... two things... first, apparently there's a specific exception to any other regulations specifically for husband and wives, there's no issues there, I can buy and give to her regardless of anything else... kinda makes sense, I guess its considered shared property anyway, what's mine is hers and whatnot. Second, and I wasn't totally clear on this even after talking to bim, but it seems like the paperrwork at the time of purchase does, effectively, "register" the weapon to the purchaser. Sounded like he was describing a de facto registration law basically. This is for PA at least where I am. We have pretty good gun laws around here though so its possible I just wasn't understanding him correctly. Oh yeah, and it IS a big no-no to purchase for someone that couldn't themselves pass a background check... but that's not a surprise to anyone I hope

publius42 · November 13, 2011, 03:47 PM

I'm not so sure about the "shared property" part. I have heard (convicted felon) G. Gordon Liddy talk about how he has no guns, but Mrs. Liddy has a nice collection. The clear implication was that those are his guns, but can't officially be his guns.

Webleymkv · November 13, 2011, 04:03 PM

As far as I understand it, it is perfectly legal under federal law to purchase a gun with your own money and give it to another person as a gift so long as you have no reason to believe that the person recieving the gun would be prohibited from posessing it (age, felony conviction, etc.).

It is not, however, legal to purchase a gun for someone else with money given to you by the person who will be recieving the gun, that's called a "straw purchase" or "strawman purchase". According to federal law, the presence or absence of prohibiting circumstances makes no difference in a straw purchase, the only legal way to purchase a gun for someone else is as a gift. The intent of the strawman law is to prevent prohibited persons from getting guns through non-prohibited third parties although the actual letter of the law is a touch more restrictive. Realistically, the strawman law is notoriously difficult to enforce unless a prohibited person gets caught with a gun acquired through a strawman purchase. While techincally illegal, strawman purchases are still relatively common, particularly between parents and children, though we here at TFL neither advocate nor condone the practice as it is indeed a federal crime.

Likewise, even when a handgun is purchased as a gift, the person recieving the gun must be a resident of the same state in which the gun was purchased. If the person recieving the handgun is a resident of a different state, the only legal way for them to recieve it is to have the handgun shipped to an FFL in their home state at which point they will have to fill out the 4473 and undergo the background check in accordance with federal law and the laws of their home state.

The above is my understanding of federal law. As is always my disclaimer, I am not a lawyer, I do not play one on television, and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Anytime you are considering doing something but are unsure of the legalities involved, the best idea is to pose the question to a lawyer, district attorney, ore state attorney general before taking any other action. I am not at all familiar with PA state law nor any local ordinances in your jurisdiction so I'm afraid that I can offer no guidance in that particular area.

fzammetti · November 13, 2011, 05:56 PM

Publius42, just to make sure I'm clear, that part about shared property was nothing but my guess as to how the law might view the situation. I wasn't told that by anyone, nor did I read it anywhere... but I did think it made some sense since as far as I'm aware, all property acquired while married is jointly owned... otherwise, why would divorces be so difficult? LOL. I can't see why guns would be any different.

Just wanted to say that so no one gets the idea I know what I'm talking about

Its nothing but what seems to me to be a reasonable guess.

publius42 · November 13, 2011, 07:37 PM

Seems reasonable to me, too. My wife always says that everything mine is hers, and I'm pretty sure the law is on her side on that one. I don't know the real answer either, just what Mr. Liddy said and seemed to be implying.

If your husband has a felony conviction, that can't mean you are a prohibited person, can it? Yet if you own a gun, that also means a felon owns the gun. Weird catch 22.

divil · November 14, 2011, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Seems reasonable to me, too. My wife always says that everything mine is hers, and I'm pretty sure the law is on her side on that one. I don't know the real answer either, just what Mr. Liddy said and seemed to be implying.

If your husband has a felony conviction, that can't mean you are a prohibited person, can it? Yet if you own a gun, that also means a felon owns the gun. Weird catch 22.

Possession here is the real issue, not "ownership". If you live with a prohibited person, and you have firearms in your possession, you have to keep them inaccessible to that person. Otherwise, they have what's called "constructive possession" which is the same thing.

I only "know" this from internet anecdotes and previous threads on TFL...so take it with a grain of salt - but I have heard of prohibited people being in violation of the law because they traveled as a passenger in a car which contained a gun, and I have also heard of the ATF insisting that a husband or wife had to keep all guns under lock and key because the spouse was a felon! Crazy, but there you go.

hermannr · November 14, 2011, 01:01 AM

Why is everyone making something so simple, difficult?

Yes, you can purchase a handgun as a gift for your wife federal law, and PA (and 90% of the other states) with no extra paperwork.

PA does not require a Nanny permission slip.

publius42 · November 14, 2011, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Possession here is the real issue, not "ownership". If you live with a prohibited person, and you have firearms in your possession, you have to keep them inaccessible to that person. Otherwise, they have what's called "constructive possession" which is the same thing.

With apologies for continuing to complicate a simple question, that would seem to raise another issue:

If I had a felony conviction, my wife would be required to keep her guns inaccessible to me. Suppose she did not do so. Proving the crime in court would seem to involve getting one spouse to testify against the other. Can't do that.

ChuckS · November 14, 2011, 09:44 AM

Quote:

I'm a current CCW holder in Pennsylvania and my wife is in the process of getting hers. I'd like to go to a gun show tomorrow and surprise her with the carry gun she liked when we check them out today, but I'm unclear on whether I can purchase it and give it to her…..

But, I'm unclear whether its legal for me to purchase it, which would make it registered to me, and give it to her to carry. ….

Pennsylvania does not require “registration” of firearms. In fact registration is forbidden by PA statute. The PA State Police do maintain a database of sales though and “some” LEO’s treat it as a “registration.” Further, the PA Supreme Court has allowed this database because it is not registration as it does not include ALL firearm transfers. For instance, people from another state, having purchased their firearms elsewhere, that have moved to PA would not have their firearms in the database, nor should they have too.

As for your situation fzammetti; transfers not requiring a FFL are as follows:

Quote:

18 Pa.C.S. § 6111: Sale or transfer of firearms
(c) Duty of other persons.--Any person who is not a licensed importer, manufacturer or dealer and who desires to sell or transfer a firearm to another unlicensed person shall do so only upon the place of business of a licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer or county sheriff's office, the latter of whom shall follow the procedure set forth in this section as if he were the seller of the firearm. The provisions of this section shall not apply to transfers between spouses or to transfers between a parent and child or to transfers between grandparent and grandchild.

So transfers between spouses do not require a FFL.

divil · November 14, 2011, 09:50 AM

Quote:

If I had a felony conviction, my wife would be required to keep her guns inaccessible to me. Suppose she did not do so. Proving the crime in court would seem to involve getting one spouse to testify against the other. Can't do that.

I'm afraid you're wrong on both counts! Proving the crime would be easy: apply for a warrant, search the house, establish that the felon had access to the firearm. No need for the people involved to even make a statement, let alone testify in court.

But anyway, why do people think that one spouse cannot testify against another? I find it incredible that people believe that!

mehavey · November 14, 2011, 10:28 AM

This is not rocket science....

It's your firearm
You let your wife--not a prohibited person--carry it.

It's still your firearm

.

brickeyee · November 14, 2011, 11:37 AM

Quote:

why do people think that one spouse cannot testify against another?

The issue is FORCING a spouse to testify against the other.

It is not allowed in some cases.

They can WILLINGLY testify, but cannot be compelled to testify.

**Aguila Blanca** · November 14, 2011, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fzammetti

...it seems like what everyone is saying essentially is that the background check is meant to ensure the purchaser is ok to own the gun, but there's nothing that says they can't turn around and give the gun to someone that would themselves fail the background check, is that right?

No, that's wrong.

Irrespective of whether or not PA state law allows you to transfer a handgun within PA without going through an FFL, you may NOT ever transfer a firearm to a person whom you know or have reason to believe is not allowed to possess a firearm. (That would mean someone who would fail a background check.)

November 13, 2011, 02:17 AM	#1
fzammetti Member Join Date: May 4, 2011 Posts: 19	Purchasing a handgun for someone else Hi folks... I've been searching for over an hour now trying to get an answer myself but haven't been able to find it... any guidance would be appreciated. I'm a current CCW holder in Pennsylvania and my wife is in the process of getting hers. I'd like to go to a gun show tomorrow and surprise her with the carry gun she liked when we check them out today, but I'm unclear on whether I can purchase it and give it to her. To be clear, there's no issue with me purchasing it... I in fact passed a background check just this Monday to purchase a new carbine And I've purchased at shows before... in fact, my intention is to purchase from the same vendor I bought my own carry gun from. But, I'm unclear whether its legal for me to purchase it, which would make it registered to me, and give it to her to carry. I think the answer is yes, since during my research I haven't turned up anything that would seem to say otherwise, but I also haven't been able to find anything that explicitly seems to cover this situation, which is usually what I like to see to be sure my legal bases are covered Thanks all, Frank

November 13, 2011, 08:01 AM	#4
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	I thought that PA had a rule that even a private transfer of a handgun required a background check? If this rule does not apply to PA, then you should be good to go under the gifting portion of the application. (If I remember correctly, it is on the back of the form.) I had almost the same question a few months ago when my sister tried to buy a shotgun for her son. __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

November 13, 2011, 02:33 AM	#2
docnyt Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2011 Location: HeArT of DiXiE Posts: 154	Are guns even registered in PA? If you look at ATF guidelines, purchasing a firearm as a gift is allowed.

November 13, 2011, 02:36 AM	#3
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,458	No. No gun registration in PA. The OP may be thinking it's his name on the background check form.

November 13, 2011, 09:43 AM	#5
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,470	Whether or not Pennsylvania requires a background check to transfer a handgun has nothing to do with whether or not it's legal for a husband to purchase a firearm and then give it to his wife. As long as the wife is not a prohibited person, that is legal under both Federal and Pennsylvania law. The gift to the wife may require a second transfer through an FFL -- I'm not that "up" on PA state law. I do know that the wife does not require a concealed carry license to own a handgun in PA. Except for residents of Philadelphia, in fact, unlicensed open carry is legal (on foot, but not in a motor vehicle).

November 13, 2011, 10:30 AM	#6
fzammetti Member Join Date: May 4, 2011 Posts: 19	Right, I know there's no permit for ownership or even open carry, just for concealed carry... which of course is really the goal here Its funny, I knew as I typed the word "register" initially that I probably wasn't using the right term... I didn't think we have a registration requirement here... but, I was unsure because as ligonierbill said, my name is on the background check at the time of purchase and I was thinking that in a sense "registered" the gun to me... that's where my concern was... and I guess still is a little, but... ...it seems like what everyone is saying essentially is that the background check is meant to ensure the purchaser is ok to own the gun, but there's nothing that says they can't turn around and give the gun to someone that would themselves fail the background check, is that right? My wife could certainly pass with no problem of course, I'm just talking generally. And if that understanding is correct, although it would seem to be a big hole in the law to me, then I should be fine to buy it and give it to her to carry (once she has her CCW of course). That sound right? Thanks guys, Frank

November 13, 2011, 01:20 PM	#8
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	As long as YOU USE YOUR money ad it is actually gift you should be GTG. Check if their is any state requirement to transfer it to your wife. The back of the 4473 is pretty clear.

November 13, 2011, 02:30 PM	#9
fzammetti Member Join Date: May 4, 2011 Posts: 19	Well, its done: my wife has a brand-spankin' new Ruger LC9 to play with As it turns out she just came to the gun show with me (the kids wanted MREs anyway!) so she just did the background check herself anyway. I talked to the dealer a bit though... two things... first, apparently there's a specific exception to any other regulations specifically for husband and wives, there's no issues there, I can buy and give to her regardless of anything else... kinda makes sense, I guess its considered shared property anyway, what's mine is hers and whatnot. Second, and I wasn't totally clear on this even after talking to bim, but it seems like the paperrwork at the time of purchase does, effectively, "register" the weapon to the purchaser. Sounded like he was describing a de facto registration law basically. This is for PA at least where I am. We have pretty good gun laws around here though so its possible I just wasn't understanding him correctly. Oh yeah, and it IS a big no-no to purchase for someone that couldn't themselves pass a background check... but that's not a surprise to anyone I hope

November 13, 2011, 03:47 PM	#10
publius42 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2002 Posts: 1,936	I'm not so sure about the "shared property" part. I have heard (convicted felon) G. Gordon Liddy talk about how he has no guns, but Mrs. Liddy has a nice collection. The clear implication was that those are his guns, but can't officially be his guns.

November 13, 2011, 04:03 PM	#11
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	As far as I understand it, it is perfectly legal under federal law to purchase a gun with your own money and give it to another person as a gift so long as you have no reason to believe that the person recieving the gun would be prohibited from posessing it (age, felony conviction, etc.). It is not, however, legal to purchase a gun for someone else with money given to you by the person who will be recieving the gun, that's called a "straw purchase" or "strawman purchase". According to federal law, the presence or absence of prohibiting circumstances makes no difference in a straw purchase, the only legal way to purchase a gun for someone else is as a gift. The intent of the strawman law is to prevent prohibited persons from getting guns through non-prohibited third parties although the actual letter of the law is a touch more restrictive. Realistically, the strawman law is notoriously difficult to enforce unless a prohibited person gets caught with a gun acquired through a strawman purchase. While techincally illegal, strawman purchases are still relatively common, particularly between parents and children, though we here at TFL neither advocate nor condone the practice as it is indeed a federal crime. Likewise, even when a handgun is purchased as a gift, the person recieving the gun must be a resident of the same state in which the gun was purchased. If the person recieving the handgun is a resident of a different state, the only legal way for them to recieve it is to have the handgun shipped to an FFL in their home state at which point they will have to fill out the 4473 and undergo the background check in accordance with federal law and the laws of their home state. The above is my understanding of federal law. As is always my disclaimer, I am not a lawyer, I do not play one on television, and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Anytime you are considering doing something but are unsure of the legalities involved, the best idea is to pose the question to a lawyer, district attorney, ore state attorney general before taking any other action. I am not at all familiar with PA state law nor any local ordinances in your jurisdiction so I'm afraid that I can offer no guidance in that particular area.

November 13, 2011, 05:56 PM	#12
fzammetti Member Join Date: May 4, 2011 Posts: 19	Publius42, just to make sure I'm clear, that part about shared property was nothing but my guess as to how the law might view the situation. I wasn't told that by anyone, nor did I read it anywhere... but I did think it made some sense since as far as I'm aware, all property acquired while married is jointly owned... otherwise, why would divorces be so difficult? LOL. I can't see why guns would be any different. Just wanted to say that so no one gets the idea I know what I'm talking about Its nothing but what seems to me to be a reasonable guess.

November 13, 2011, 07:37 PM	#13
publius42 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2002 Posts: 1,936	Seems reasonable to me, too. My wife always says that everything mine is hers, and I'm pretty sure the law is on her side on that one. I don't know the real answer either, just what Mr. Liddy said and seemed to be implying. If your husband has a felony conviction, that can't mean you are a prohibited person, can it? Yet if you own a gun, that also means a felon owns the gun. Weird catch 22.

November 14, 2011, 01:01 AM	#15
hermannr Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2011 Posts: 730	Why is everyone making something so simple, difficult? Yes, you can purchase a handgun as a gift for your wife federal law, and PA (and 90% of the other states) with no extra paperwork. PA does not require a Nanny permission slip.

November 14, 2011, 10:28 AM	#19
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,896	This is not rocket science.... It's your firearm You let your wife--not a prohibited person--carry it. It's still your firearm .