The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 18, 2014, 04:18 PM   #51
WESHOOT2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,324
I understand, agree, and appreciate

Quote:
You won't ever hear me say that a cheap Ranier HP is a great defensive bullet. It is however what I use because I had a good supply of them, a bunch of ammo loaded with them, and a Kimber .45 ACP that likes them and shoots them to point of aim. Its big, seems pretty soft and expands pretty well from my shooting into wet catalogs etc, plus did I mention its pretty much what I have except for some 200 grain lead SWC's that are light loaded, which would still be much better than a rock
Your Kimber likes them and shoots them to point of aim; I believe confidence in one's gun-n-ammo is actually more important than the bullet chosen.
__________________
.
"all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"
WESHOOT2 is offline  
Old January 18, 2014, 04:24 PM   #52
Real Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Location: SC
Posts: 2,743
We seem to want to debate the definition of a defensive round. I think we know it is an expanding or mushrooming bullet, something to give the maximum wound and controlled penetration.

So it seems that some don't use defensive rounds at all.

But when I use defensive rounds, I drink Dos Equiis...no,,, got confused there...sorry.
Real Gun is offline  
Old January 19, 2014, 10:03 AM   #53
mnoirot64
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2013
Location: Clarksville, Tennessee
Posts: 365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Gun View Post
We seem to want to debate the definition of a defensive round. I think we know it is an expanding or mushrooming bullet, something to give the maximum wound and controlled penetration.



So it seems that some don't use defensive rounds at all.



But when I use defensive rounds, I drink Dos Equiis...no,,, got confused there...sorry.

Real Gun is actually the most interesting man in the world.... *GRIN*
mnoirot64 is offline  
Old March 1, 2017, 09:24 PM   #54
USG
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2010
Posts: 7
Quote:
My .38 is my "house gun". The load is "designed" as an 850 fps, full caliber flat point that will cause lots of tissue disruption and shock, and little over penetration. The same applies to the 45 ACP, large flat fronted bullet traveling at a moderate speed imparts lots of tissue damage without danger to the neighbors. I have shot quite a few of these reloads and am used to, and comfortable with them and I can usually hit what I point at. My research in gel testing (not mine, but published results) tells me these thoughts are on the right track. Nope, I haven't shot anybody with them, and I haven't shot any cadavers to test the rounds, I just use my own common sense putting the rounds together...
I know this is an old thread, but I post in the interest of not spreading misinformation to those reading this thread (which is comes up readily in a Google search on the topic). If you are loading for "lots of tissue disruption and shock, and little over penetration" the above loads are the exact opposite of this. The poster is greatly mistaken in his comments, and one can only wonder what ballistic gelatin testing he read that tells him that his "thoughts are on the right track". As the reader can easily find these tests online by googling, allow me to summarize:

The .38 Special 148 grain factory swaged wadcutter at standard factory target velocity has been shown in numerous tests to penetrate 18+ inches of ballistic gelatin, exiting most testing media blocks. Other tests have shown up to 24" of penetration. Loading with a cast DEWC will produce even MORE penetration due to the non-deforming nature of that bullet.

The 200 grain .45 Auto cast SWC at target velocities penetrates as much or more. With either the .38 wadcutter or .45 SWC load, boosting them over a "stiff load" as the poster also stated, would produce penetration of close to 30". In one well-publicized tragedy, a shooter at an IPSC event using a .45 200 SWC loaded to major factor missed his target at a bad angle, the bullet travelling 50 yards and missing the backstop before penetrating through an exterior and interior wall before killing a teenager attending a safety class. There are most certainly NOT limited penetration loads.

As far as "lots of tissue shock", this theory has also been shown by testing to be a false presumption for these types of loads. They do not expand to create a larger wound channel; they remain at bullet diameter. The edges of the lead projectiles are rounded by the firing process - there is no sharp-edged cookie-cutter effect. Nor do these round tumble to create a larger wound channel; they travel straight-line head-on through tissue. While they do make an initial blunt impact, they are more similar in total tissue disruption to round nose bullets, and far behind modern hollowpoint bullets.

While choosing use these WC and SWC types of loads for self-defense based on accuracy, mild recoil, and/or familiarity are valid reasons, they are most definitely NOT limited penetration rounds, nor do they possess the wounding effect of modern hollowpoint bullets. They are amongst the worst choices for limited penetration in populated areas, apartments, etc. A lightweight HP bullet is far better for the purpose of limited penetration and tissue disruption. If strictly limited penetration is not an issue, then medium or heavy weight jacketed hollow point bullets are still vastly superior in wounding ability to SWC or WC loads.

Last edited by USG; March 1, 2017 at 09:40 PM.
USG is offline  
Old March 2, 2017, 08:45 PM   #55
random guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2017
Posts: 272
In handguns I prefer Gold Dots. They are magic. I'm sure they can be made to fail but it would take some doing. There are gel tests of them at +P+ squared velocities which peel the bullet back right down to its base but the bullet still weighed within .5 grain of original weight. Magic.

They do tend to underpenetrate when driven this fast so there is really no need to abuse the gun or brass with extreme pressures.

There are undoubtedly other really good bullets as well but GDs seem so consistently good that I looked no further. They are not always easy to get so I shoot more XTPs at the range, a fine bullet in its own right.

The most important factor in stopping an attack has to be shot placement and most of the time, a well placed target wadcutter would do the trick. Still, there are occasional cases where a "low performance" bullet pokes a self-sealing hole or otherwise is less than decisive, to the detriment of the person defending themselves. So we want all the edge we can get.

I got my first Ranier 115gr HPs a while back and was intrigued by their similarity to GDs. I don't really expect GD performance (Others have gotten wildly varying expansion results) but I'm going to shoot them into some wet newsprint tomorrow at the best velocity I can churn up.

Edit: Ranier test is complete and they did better than I expected. They did seem to shed some weight compared to the one Gold Dot that I shot for comparison. The Raniers did all expand and penetrate consistently, a bit more than the GD but less than the Fed RTP 115 FMJ which drilled thru the entire stack.

Last edited by random guy; March 3, 2017 at 04:18 PM.
random guy is offline  
Old March 3, 2017, 09:38 AM   #56
Real Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Location: SC
Posts: 2,743
Again you are seeing and replying to commentary by people who are not actually using a "defensive" bullet per se and who are rationalizing why they can use bullets they cast themselves.
__________________
Not an expert, just a reporter.
Real Gun is offline  
Old March 3, 2017, 04:33 PM   #57
ShootistPRS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2017
Posts: 1,583
I use a Sierra 140 grain JHP in my 357, a Sierra 185 grain JHP in my 45.
I don't use my 9mm in a self defense mode.
ShootistPRS is offline  
Old March 3, 2017, 11:39 PM   #58
JeepHammer
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2015
Posts: 1,768
"What Bullets Do You Use For Peraonal Defense"...

I use the hair on the back of my neck, when it stands up, I back out or look for an escape route.

I've been in gunfights (military) and I have ZERO wish to get into another one now that I'm old, crippled and take MUCH longer to heal.

That being said, Since I normally hit what I aim at,
The bullets in the firearm, no matter what they are... only in the event I get cornered.

Everyone wants to *THINK* they are John Wayne, Rambo & the Terminator combined...
In all actuality most freeze up or wet themselves.

And for the UNINITIATED,
Fully expect to be charged with 'Homocide' or worse,
Fully expect to spend $100,000 or more to defend yourself in court,
And even if you do get acquitted in criminal court,
Fully expect to be sued by the shooting victim or their family,
And, fully expect your choice of firearm/bullet to be front & center in that litigation.

I don't need to hear YOUR state/county laws,
I don't need to hear your version of how you *Think* it's going to go.
Police officers/LE get sued REGULARLY after being cleared because of the weapon/bullet they used...
Just facts of the world we live in.
JeepHammer is offline  
Old March 4, 2017, 07:36 AM   #59
jmorris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 3,076
It really depends on what I am defending myself against and what firearm I have on me.

Luckily, I have never had to fire a shot at a human but if my life were in jeopardy I wouldn't worry about what ammunition was in my firearm.

I'll take the argument one step further for the "never reloads" crowd, let's say you developed the perfect hog, deer or target round for that matter and someone was threatening your life and that firearm/ammunition was what you happened to have in your hand, do you grab it by the muzzle to use it as a club?

Last edited by jmorris; March 4, 2017 at 07:43 AM.
jmorris is offline  
Old March 4, 2017, 10:23 AM   #60
Wendyj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2015
Location: North Georgia
Posts: 1,372
I like the Speer gold dots in all my carry guns. Reload my own for plinking and bench shooting but carry factory gold dots for 2 legged critters. Hope and pray I never have to use one.
__________________
God is NOT dead!!!!
Wendyj is offline  
Old March 5, 2017, 10:42 AM   #61
std7mag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2013
Location: Central Taxylvania..
Posts: 3,609
I don't shoot factory made ammo....

For the Springfield Armory Champion 45ACP my loading varies.
185gr. Sierra HP
200gr. Hornady LSWC C/T
I load all my 45 ACP to a velocity of 900-950 FPS. Allows the hollow points to expand reliably, and allows me to accurately hit what I'm shooting at.

For the Walther PPS (first gen with the trigger guard mag release)
115gr. Sierra HP
115gr, 124gr. Speer Gold Dots
115gr, 124gr Hornady XTP
std7mag is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.05157 seconds with 10 queries