SMGs or Shotguns

Shin-Tao · March 2, 2000, 01:26 PM

For going house to house, ala Stalingrad or Tet, would you preffer using an SMG or a Shotgun? There is a lot of overlap in these weapons ideal operating ranges and usage.
If you are cutting the pie in an apartment complex occupied by hostiles, do you want a 12bore or a select fire 9mm? Think squad level, not lone hero.

WETSU · March 2, 2000, 02:05 PM

No question in my mind in a real all out house to house fight with little regard for civilians, and a supply tail following me, I would take the SMG. Shotguns are neat, but subguns are better. In police matters there is more debate for obvious reasons, but ask yourself, throughout history, why have the world's militaries issued millions of SMG compared to the relative few shotguns? For street fighting, an assault rifle would be better, and a sack of Dutch mini grenades would help, but if I must I'll take the SMG. Imagine how if faced with an enemy soldier pinning you down from 100 to 150 yards away you would deal with that opponent with either weapon. Imagine how a .45 ACP from a Thompson would deal with a reinforced room compared to a shotgun etc. I'm not doing the argument justice. Maybe someone else can jump in here.

SB · March 2, 2000, 02:49 PM

Is this a trick question?

If anything, the shotgun plays a niche role. Using rifle slugs to breach doors for example. And when not in breaching mode, they can be used to cover the rear. I've also seen the LAPD mount mirrors on the front of the barrel, seeing how it's a longer arm than the typical SMG, that makes sense.

Other than that, I agree with WETSU. SMGs all the way.

$.02

Jeff White · March 2, 2000, 06:30 PM

Submachine guns, but only if I couldn't use an M4A1.

Shotguns are ok to shoot out locks and hinges, but I think you would be better served with an M4A1 or HK G36. If I were forced to use a pistol caliber submachine gun, it'd have to be a UMP in .45.

I see the pistol caliber submachine gun becoming a niche weapon along with the shotgun.

Jeff

SB · March 2, 2000, 10:12 PM

I stand corrected. I vote for the M4 or something along those lines as well.

Shin-Tao · March 3, 2000, 03:18 AM

You all agree on 5.56mm then.
You have a cartridge, name your desired action and configuration.
At these confined ranges, what do you hold as most vital? Accuracy or reliability?
I see reliability as most important.

Bulldozer · March 3, 2000, 09:37 AM

I think the era of using shotguns and SMGs in urban combat by a military unit a la Stalingrad scenarios are over. The SMG was used because they did not have any rifle-caliber weapons that fired full-auto. Both have become niche weapons.

If I were to be in an urban combat scenario with house-clearing, I'd likely opt for a 7.62 x 39mm caliber AK or a 7.62 x 51mm G-3K or FN-PARA. I would like to be able to punch through walls and car bodies with a solid, heavy round. The 5.56 x 45mm and 5.45 x 39mm are lighter rounds that are not gonna punch through anything harder than drywall. I'd also see a huge advantage for an ARWEN type grenade launcher with multi-shot capaiclity with 40mm grenade shells.

If we are talking a squad-level force, I'd also see the utility in a M-60E3 GPMG for suppressing sniper nests or hardened MGs in kill zones in towers. A couple of AT-4s or LAWs would finish off nicely for those "hardened" nests of nastiness. Of course, M-26A2 frags and M-34A1 WP grenades would be nice too.

WETSU · March 3, 2000, 10:06 AM

Well, since we changed the parameters, from shotgun vs. SMG to choosing an assault rifle. My first choice would be an AK variant, probably a Valmet. Out in the sticks give me an AR, in town for house to house, I'll take an AK. Bulldozer, good call on the pocket artillery, I'd throw in a guy with an FN MAG, bags of hand grenades for everyone, and of course an RTO to call in fire from an AC-130 Spectre, some Apaches, Blackhawk extraction helo's with miniguns, and some Little Birds for close in work. Oh yeah, and lots of Claymoores to leave behind, and det cord, and C4 to make lots of mouse holes. Anything else?

Tony III · March 3, 2000, 12:48 PM

M4 / G36 in 5.56 Or G3 / FAL in 7.62 if I was equiping average guys, 5.56 Better shooters could make good use of 7.62

"Know the stillness of freedom,
Where there is no more striving"
- The Dhamapadah
- Buddha 563-483 B.C.

Tony.

[This message has been edited by Tony III (edited March 03, 2000).]

PJ11B3VF7 · March 3, 2000, 02:42 PM

WETSU,
ROFLMAO, ant the guys flying the Little Birds and Blackhawks (I'm presuming MH-60's) are from 160th.

As to whether a shotgun or an SMG, I'd take an M-4 or an MP5. I really don't feel like having a stray 7.62 round come through the wall from the squad behind me

IMHO of course

------------------
Walk softly and carry a big stick (Yeah I know I stole it)

Shin-Tao · March 5, 2000, 07:22 PM

Under what conditions would you choose a shotgun?

If using a 5.56mm, what configuration and qualities do you want your weapon to have?

Jeff White · March 5, 2000, 08:33 PM

M4A1 with white light and M68 Aimpoint. I would equip one M4A1 in each squad with the KAC 12 gage Doorkey shotgun.

The only task I would use the shotgun for is breaching doors.

Jeff

Hard Ball · March 7, 2000, 10:03 PM

An M4 Ranger carbine with a 40nn M203 40mm grenade launcher installed would be far superior to either a shotgun or an SMG.

March 2, 2000, 01:26 PM	#1
Shin-Tao Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 1,528	For going house to house, ala Stalingrad or Tet, would you preffer using an SMG or a Shotgun? There is a lot of overlap in these weapons ideal operating ranges and usage. If you are cutting the pie in an apartment complex occupied by hostiles, do you want a 12bore or a select fire 9mm? Think squad level, not lone hero.

March 2, 2000, 02:05 PM	#2
WETSU Member Join Date: January 11, 2000 Location: Indiana Posts: 94	No question in my mind in a real all out house to house fight with little regard for civilians, and a supply tail following me, I would take the SMG. Shotguns are neat, but subguns are better. In police matters there is more debate for obvious reasons, but ask yourself, throughout history, why have the world's militaries issued millions of SMG compared to the relative few shotguns? For street fighting, an assault rifle would be better, and a sack of Dutch mini grenades would help, but if I must I'll take the SMG. Imagine how if faced with an enemy soldier pinning you down from 100 to 150 yards away you would deal with that opponent with either weapon. Imagine how a .45 ACP from a Thompson would deal with a reinforced room compared to a shotgun etc. I'm not doing the argument justice. Maybe someone else can jump in here.

March 2, 2000, 02:49 PM	#3
SB Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 1998 Posts: 415	Is this a trick question? If anything, the shotgun plays a niche role. Using rifle slugs to breach doors for example. And when not in breaching mode, they can be used to cover the rear. I've also seen the LAPD mount mirrors on the front of the barrel, seeing how it's a longer arm than the typical SMG, that makes sense. Other than that, I agree with WETSU. SMGs all the way. $.02

March 2, 2000, 06:30 PM	#4
Jeff White Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: Kinmundy, IL, USA Posts: 1,397	Submachine guns, but only if I couldn't use an M4A1. Shotguns are ok to shoot out locks and hinges, but I think you would be better served with an M4A1 or HK G36. If I were forced to use a pistol caliber submachine gun, it'd have to be a UMP in .45. I see the pistol caliber submachine gun becoming a niche weapon along with the shotgun. Jeff

March 2, 2000, 10:12 PM	#5
SB Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 1998 Posts: 415	I stand corrected. I vote for the M4 or something along those lines as well.

March 3, 2000, 03:18 AM	#6
Shin-Tao Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 1,528	You all agree on 5.56mm then. You have a cartridge, name your desired action and configuration. At these confined ranges, what do you hold as most vital? Accuracy or reliability? I see reliability as most important.

March 3, 2000, 09:37 AM	#7
Bulldozer Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Location: Kansas City Metro Posts: 415	I think the era of using shotguns and SMGs in urban combat by a military unit a la Stalingrad scenarios are over. The SMG was used because they did not have any rifle-caliber weapons that fired full-auto. Both have become niche weapons. If I were to be in an urban combat scenario with house-clearing, I'd likely opt for a 7.62 x 39mm caliber AK or a 7.62 x 51mm G-3K or FN-PARA. I would like to be able to punch through walls and car bodies with a solid, heavy round. The 5.56 x 45mm and 5.45 x 39mm are lighter rounds that are not gonna punch through anything harder than drywall. I'd also see a huge advantage for an ARWEN type grenade launcher with multi-shot capaiclity with 40mm grenade shells. If we are talking a squad-level force, I'd also see the utility in a M-60E3 GPMG for suppressing sniper nests or hardened MGs in kill zones in towers. A couple of AT-4s or LAWs would finish off nicely for those "hardened" nests of nastiness. Of course, M-26A2 frags and M-34A1 WP grenades would be nice too.

March 3, 2000, 10:06 AM	#8
WETSU Member Join Date: January 11, 2000 Location: Indiana Posts: 94	Well, since we changed the parameters, from shotgun vs. SMG to choosing an assault rifle. My first choice would be an AK variant, probably a Valmet. Out in the sticks give me an AR, in town for house to house, I'll take an AK. Bulldozer, good call on the pocket artillery, I'd throw in a guy with an FN MAG, bags of hand grenades for everyone, and of course an RTO to call in fire from an AC-130 Spectre, some Apaches, Blackhawk extraction helo's with miniguns, and some Little Birds for close in work. Oh yeah, and lots of Claymoores to leave behind, and det cord, and C4 to make lots of mouse holes. Anything else?

March 3, 2000, 12:48 PM	#9
Tony III Member Join Date: March 2, 1999 Posts: 88	M4 / G36 in 5.56 Or G3 / FAL in 7.62 if I was equiping average guys, 5.56 Better shooters could make good use of 7.62 "Know the stillness of freedom, Where there is no more striving" - The Dhamapadah - Buddha 563-483 B.C. Tony. [This message has been edited by Tony III (edited March 03, 2000).]

March 3, 2000, 02:42 PM	#10
PJ11B3VF7 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2000 Location: Iraq Posts: 394	WETSU, ROFLMAO, ant the guys flying the Little Birds and Blackhawks (I'm presuming MH-60's) are from 160th. As to whether a shotgun or an SMG, I'd take an M-4 or an MP5. I really don't feel like having a stray 7.62 round come through the wall from the squad behind me IMHO of course ------------------ Walk softly and carry a big stick (Yeah I know I stole it)

March 5, 2000, 07:22 PM	#11
Shin-Tao Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 1,528	Under what conditions would you choose a shotgun? If using a 5.56mm, what configuration and qualities do you want your weapon to have?

March 5, 2000, 08:33 PM	#12
Jeff White Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: Kinmundy, IL, USA Posts: 1,397	M4A1 with white light and M68 Aimpoint. I would equip one M4A1 in each squad with the KAC 12 gage Doorkey shotgun. The only task I would use the shotgun for is breaching doors. Jeff

March 7, 2000, 10:03 PM	#13
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	An M4 Ranger carbine with a 40nn M203 40mm grenade launcher installed would be far superior to either a shotgun or an SMG.