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Old March 27, 2014, 02:37 AM   #1
davery25
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"Overloading" the 38 Special - Lever action

Hi guys,

I know that the shorter case means higher pressure but am I able to use a starting load for a 357 mag pistol load in a 38 special case?

I am using a 125gr Lead Flat Nose projectile and ADI AS30N powder (you'll all know it as Hodgdon Clays). Even the maximum 3.5 gr load for the 38 special is VERY anaemic when fired from my 357 mag Browning B92 and the start load of 2.5 grains is extremely powerless - i can actually see the projectile fly as it it were a BB gun and in both cases can hear the hammer drop over the sound of the muzzle report. Between the start load and mid-range load I actually had to double check that the projectiles had left the barrel on two occasions.

I don't want to test limits and go all 'hotrod' - just want a slightly more stout 38 special load

The pistol data for 357 mag and AS30N shows a start load of 4 grains - just wonder if I'm good to work up to that or slightly beyond.

I'd like to go up to a rifle load for 357 mag but AS30N/Clays isn't noted as a suitable powder.

Last edited by davery25; March 27, 2014 at 02:47 AM.
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Old March 27, 2014, 04:26 AM   #2
Woodslab
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I better wait, until the good advice shows up here. You don't want "The Mad Scientist" chiming in.
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Old March 27, 2014, 05:14 AM   #3
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Some guys seem to think that they can load 38 cases up with 357 loads just because of the chambering and the same for 44 special/44 mag. Unfortunately it all comes down to pressure. You can load the .38 with more pressure than the .357 chamber is designed to hold. They are different calibers altogether and you must respect the pressure limits for each one. In the rifle you can get by with "warmish" loads that you wouldn't want to subject a revolver to, but pay attention to the books and the info they give you for your particular caliber.
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Old March 27, 2014, 06:19 AM   #4
ligonierbill
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Not sure why you would use such a fast powder, especially in a rifle. But your answer is probably not. You could try it and it's unlikely you will break anything, but your first indication you've gone too far will probably be a stuck case. And you really won't gain anything.
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Old March 27, 2014, 07:04 AM   #5
griz
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Hodgdons lists a max load for a 125 Gr Jacketed bullet as 3.9 grains, and that's not even +P. So I would guess the load your thinking of would still be very mild. That's assuming it's just Clays by some other name, I've never heard of ADI AS30N before now.
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Old March 27, 2014, 11:02 AM   #6
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FOR what you are asking THAT is a very poor choice of propellents. I would choose nothing faster than Hodgdon's UNIVERSAL which can do a lot more than it's snootier faster lil brother. GO to the Hodgdon loading data and DO NOT select anything off the 'net that cannot be verified in writing in a loading manual.
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Old March 27, 2014, 11:06 AM   #7
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Quote:
I don't want to test limits and go all 'hotrod' - just want a slightly more stout 38 special load.
What's wrong with +P loads in .38 Special? If you want .357 velocities, go with a .357 Magnum. You could always use "light" loads in .357 brass to keep recoil and blast down but it's better to just keep .38 Special loads in .38 Special brass and .357 in .357...
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Old March 27, 2014, 11:16 AM   #8
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There's a classic .38 Special load using 158 or 173 grain cast bullets and 2400 powder designed for the large-frame S&W Outdoorsman revolver. That should be enough info for you to find it
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Old March 27, 2014, 12:48 PM   #9
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Despite what some of the guys here are saying, Clays is perfectly fine even in a carbine. I use it all the time in light loads out of my .44 Mag Rossi 92. It all depends on what you're trying to do with the load. Longer barrels do not necessarily require slower powders.

As you found out, while Clays is great for light loads it is more than a bit lacking for anything more powerful. If you want more power you really want to look at a different powder--when you start pushing Clays things can get dangerous quickly. It sounds like you've got a bit more room to work with if you stick with Clays, but based on what you wrote I don't think you'll be happy with a max safe load with it.
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Old March 27, 2014, 01:14 PM   #10
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I use 5.2 grains of Unique under a 158 gr. LSWCHP to simulate the +P FBI load. That should give you a bit more pop, but don't expect a .38 to give you much recoil in a rifle.
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Old March 27, 2014, 07:18 PM   #11
davery25
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Looking back I really cannot remember why I've ended up with Clays (AS30N). I remember that I was actually after Hodgdon Universal (called AS70N here) and the shop didn't have any so I quickly googled AS30N on my phone and bought it instead of visiting another shop which had Universal or Alliant 2400.

They did have H110 but the amount required per case put me off, although even that would have been a much better choice.

you live and you learn. What I might do is consign this powder to light loads and go and get a slower powder.

What would you guys recommend? I might also change bullet weights to 158gr

I'm thinking either H110, Alliant 2400 or Hodgdon Universal

Last edited by davery25; March 27, 2014 at 07:25 PM.
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Old March 27, 2014, 07:47 PM   #12
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Actually one thing I did notice is that Hodgdon's load data indicates a magnum primer - I'm using standard small pistol in mine. How much of a difference would that make?
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Old March 27, 2014, 08:49 PM   #13
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When a powder calls for a magnum primer it usually is because it is needed to make a complete burn with the powder. Sometimes it is only needed in cold weather. I suggest trying it again with the right primer. It is possible you will get better results than you might think.

I have used magnum primers with powders when it didn't need them and the difference wasn't all that much. Powders that do need a magnum primer will normally make a bigger difference using them compared to a standard primer.

For me, if it calls for a magnum primer I will always use one. When it doesn't call for a magnum primer and that is all I have I just work up a load using the magnum primer.
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Old March 27, 2014, 09:26 PM   #14
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I`ve found that CLAYS works very well in it`s range , squeeze it or pushin it results in very fast pressure spikes,as per chrony results.

As powder manufaturers/despensing companies have evolved with better pressure measuring devices (piezo sensors) they have found alot of differences from the previously CUP pressure units & have adjusted loads to be more liable friendly.

With that said & in my exp. I feel you`d be better served with a slower burnin powder with carbine length barrel.Plus the lead bullet will be happier!

Think of driving a car to 60mph & which is easier on the vehicle , stomping the throttle to the floor or accelarating slowly to 60mph
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Old March 27, 2014, 09:33 PM   #15
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I have had good results with 2400 in .357 cases. With 125grn bullets I have had to load closer to the upper end of the pistol range to keep it from shooting extremely high. With 158grn I just need to keep them hot enough to clear the barrel, above 900fps or so. This is in a 20" Rossi 92. If you want exact loads I have used for .357 I can post them. I have not shot my .38's in it because they are mostly pistol target loads and I do not want to worry about them clearing the barrel.
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Old March 27, 2014, 10:03 PM   #16
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Quote:
am I able to use a starting load for a 357 mag pistol load in a 38 special case?
The short answer is "no." Along the lines of Old Stony's post, you gotta treat the two cartridges as different - because they are.

If you want a hot rod 38 Special round, work up a recipe, starting with 38 Special data.

Unless the powder is really slow, simply putting a 357 Mag's quantity of powder (even a "starting load") into a 38 Special case is extremely ill-advised.

Further, if you decide to hot rod a 38 Special recipe, I would strongly suggest moving to a slower powder - especially given you're shooting a rifle.
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Old March 28, 2014, 12:49 AM   #17
davery25
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Done. thanks for the help guys.

From this discussion I figure I'm going to be unhappy regardless due to poor powder choice on my part.

It might be an OK powder to have on hand for light loads when i pick up a 44 mag or start reloading shotshells but for now I might just switch to a slower powder that allows me to load up some +P loads in 38 special.

The reason I asked in the first place is because I have several hundred cases in 38 special and only 50 in 357 mag. I don't really intend to put many 357 mag rounds through the gun and just wanted to use 38 specials - but slightly hotter ones given how pathetic my loads in them were. Factory loads were a lot hotter than what I made were.

I learnt something from all of you though - a big thanks to all!
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