Hornady dies and setting shoulders back

Wendyj · July 14, 2015, 05:38 PM

All my Lee dies I've been able to use Hornady headspace guage and adjust dies to bump neck back .002. I got my Hornady dies today and tried to use guage and I have moved dies backward and forward and I'm getting .002 more than factory fired brass. Once fired factory brass. Turning 1/16 to 1/4 inch at a time I've went as far as 2 full turns backward and 2 full turns forward. Can't get it. Remington and Federal brass. I had no problem with lee dies on 308 or 7 mag. Raised cam until it met she'll holder. Turned about a 1/16 to a 1/2 turn and lock and load headspace guage read perfect .002 bump. I'm getting longer than once fired instead of shorter. Imperial wax. 260 Remington once fired factory ammo. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. Any ideas.

PA-Joe · July 14, 2015, 06:34 PM

Which brand of shellholder are you using? They all have slightly different bench heights. Also you did raise the ram and screw the die down to touch the ram, lowered the ram and then turned it down 1/2 turn more before locking it in place correct? A cheap solution is to get a second shellholder and sand the top down a little. Were these fired in your rifle? If not see if they will chamber in your rifle.

Wendyj · July 14, 2015, 06:41 PM

I'm using #2 Lee she'll holder. I seated ram to she'll holder as per instructions in dies. Turned the 1/4 turn also. They just get longer. Backing up or going down. Federal and Remington brass. They are clambering in my rifle ok. Only way is to set dies just touching she'll holder. I don't know if it's because it was new factory ammo or not. Only fired once from factory box. Using full length Hornady sizing die. They were fired in my rifle.

jepp2 · July 14, 2015, 07:54 PM

If I understand your problem, you cannot set the shoulder back sufficiently on once fired brass with your new Hornady die?

First suggestion, your adjustments are too coarse to achieve the 0.002 shoulder setback you desire. Your words: 2 turns backwards and 2 turns forward is way too much.

You don't mention the type press you are using. If you do really want to limit your setback to 0.002" you must ignore the directions that came with the die on how to adjust.

Start by adjusting your die to lightly contact the shell holder with the ram in the up position. Take your decapping rod/expander out of your die. Measure a case before sizing, and lube and size it. Use the attached guide (courtesy of Unclenick) on how much to screw the die down until you achieve the desired shoulder setback. You know how to do this since you have done it with your Lee dies. It is possible that the combination of your Hornady die and Lee shell holder will not set back the shoulder sufficiently and your press is flexing too much. You can increase the amount the brass goes in the die by placing a feelers gauge under the case head in the shell holder. Trim as necessary to fit and if you use shim stock that is thin enough you can use more than one. If this results in adequate shoulder setback, you can remove material from the top of the shell holder (already suggested). It is much easier remove material from the shell holder than the die. Dies are very hard.

Keep repeating using the same case. When you do get it setback the correct amount, you need to put the decapping rod/expander back in to properly size the neck. No use running it over the expander repeatedly while you are adjusting your die. Try another case. It might not be set back quite enough since it is only being sized once vs. the previous case that was sized several times. Adjust as necessary.

Wendyj · July 14, 2015, 08:14 PM

I didn't mean 2 full turns at once. I was turning die in 1/16 to 1/4 inch turns until it had reached 2 turns. I tried it setting per directions. Raised cam. Stewed die until it touched the she'll holder. Started moving down in small increments. Tried to reverse the operation and move up in same increments. Think I'm going to just order the Lee dies. Couldn't find 260 but in one store and Hornady was it. Reviews on Midway show sizing die an issue. It didn't come with a she'll holder like Lee does. May find a number one at Acadamy. So far not a Hornady fan. Bullet seater probably going to have same issues. Dies are cheaper than bullets. Well, my cheap dies anyway. By the way a Lee progressive press

F. Guffey · July 15, 2015, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Which brand of shellholder are you using?

It does not matter the make, model or year of the shell holder being used, what does matter is the deck height. My shell holders have a deck height of .125". To find variations I have to go back to the 1950s. I have make, model and made in the '50s that are off by .008", I do not have shell holders made by RCBS that are not .125" that were made in the '50s.

F. Guffey

I do have one set of Redding competition shell holders for belted magnum cases. As we all know they come in a set of 5, 3 of the shell holders in the set are off by .001" each, does that drive me to the curb? No. I am the one with the shell holder height adjuster.

I paid $5.00 for the set.

F. Guffey · July 15, 2015, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Any ideas.

Head space gage, I have head space gages, I also have case gages, I use the case gage to measure the length of the case before firing, after firing and after sizing. My cases do not have head space, I use the length of the case to off set the length of the chamber.

To make sure we are on the same page, measuring the length of the fired case from the shoulder to the head of the case allows the reloader to know the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. When sizing the fired case 'it has been decided' reducing the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head is the objective. By how much? The perfect answer is 'by .002".

No one determines if the dies and presses are capable of that kind of accuracy. I have had cases whip one of my presses, I have had cases that did not get stuffed into the die when the ram came up, meaning my press flexed because the case had more resistance to sizing than my press could overcome. When that happened a gap was created between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder, for me? Not a problem, I use my shell holder adjuster (feeler gage) to measure the width of the gap to determine how bad my press got whipped. It could be the lube.

I have also removed the die from the press before lowering the ram to measure case head protrusion, in the perfect world and with shell holder with a deck height of .125" I should have case head protrusion of .125" if the shell holder made it to the bottom of the die.

To remove the die from the press without lowering the ram remove the shell holder by rotating it to align with the ram and case head at the same time then remove. After removing the die with the protruding case measure the case head protrusion.

F. Guffey

higgite · July 15, 2015, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wendyj

I'm using #2 Lee she'll holder. I seated ram to she'll holder as per instructions in dies. Turned the 1/4 turn also. They just get longer. Backing up or going down. Federal and Remington brass. They are clambering in my rifle ok. Only way is to set dies just touching she'll holder. I don't know if it's because it was new factory ammo or not. Only fired once from factory box. Using full length Hornady sizing die. They were fired in my rifle.

I guess I'm not understanding your problem if the resized cases chamber in your rifle okay, even though they are getting longer. It doesn't sound like the fired cases are "too long" so that they would require bumping the shoulder back in the first place. I don't think any FLS die will bump the shoulder back if it's already shorter than the die is made to bump back to. What am I missing?

Metal god · July 15, 2015, 12:42 PM

Quote:

I guess I'm not understanding your problem if the resized cases chamber in your rifle okay, even though they are getting longer. It doesn't sound like the fired cases are "too long" so that they would require bumping the shoulder back in the first place. I don't think any FLS die will bump the shoulder back if it's already shorter than the die is made to bump back to. What am I missing?

^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sorry Wendy , your post are usually pretty clear but I to am not following your point . If the cases are chambering , What is the issue ? Are you saying you are sizing the cases with the Hornady die as small/short as that die can size them and they are what ?

Still NOT fitting in your chamber ?

Fitting in the chamber but with the bolt binding up a little ?

Fitting in the chamber freely with NO bolt binding ?

Each one of those will have a different answer to fix the problem .

F. Guffey · July 15, 2015, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Any ideas.

I adjust my dies every time I use them. Meaning it does not matter if I am going from RCBS to Lyman to Herters to C&H to Hornady. Then there is that part where all dies and shell holders have the came ability to restore a case to minimum length/full length size. WHO MEASURES?

I have used old C&H and Herter dies to form cases for chambers I do not have, the chambers belong to someone I mailed the cases to. I included instructions, 20 of the cases are minimum length/full length sized, 20 of the cases were go-gage length and should chamber with slight resistance to bolt closing. then the next 20 should not chamber because they are no go-gage length and the next 20 were field reject length.

The reloader had to size the no go-gage length cases, he had to size the field reject length cases and trim.

F. Guffey

Wendyj · July 15, 2015, 03:03 PM

I'm not sure what issue was but my Wilson guage came today with bullets and trimmer. Picked up a Hornady #1 shell holder and fired a case. Used guage and barrel to check. Perfect. Went from fired at 3.623 to sized at 3.621. Bolt is firm but not too snug. Loaded one Sierra match King. Dead on. Hornady she'll holder is thicker than Lees. Not sure if that was an issue or not but for me it's fixed. Time to trim weigh powder and load. Thanks for everyone's help on here. I was losing my mind. Metal. I had already sized all but 2. The ones that fit in my chamber I had given an extra /4 turn. Sorry for the confusion.

603Country · July 15, 2015, 05:15 PM

In the instance that you are oversizing the brass, and I think that is a possibility, case head separations will show up.

If the fired case chambers without resistance, no shoulder bump was required.

FrankenMauser · July 16, 2015, 12:36 AM

I'm glad you figured it out.

As F. Guffey brought up - shell holders are typically fairly consistent. ...But I have found that they do vary.
Lee shell holders, in particular, are inconsistent dimensionally. (According to my measurements.)

Most important is the term that I use (and rubbed off on F. Guffey): "Deck height". This is the distance from the base of the cartridge to the top of the shell holder.
The standard dimension is 0.125". However, Lee shell holders tend to be on the thick side, if they deviate from that. As such, you can run into problems exactly like what you were experiencing: inability to bump the shoulder.

What you ended up with -- I assume because you figured matching shell holder brand with die brand was a good idea -- is actually exactly what I was going to suggest.
Hornady shell holders are the most consistent shell holders that I've measured.
If I run into shell holder issues, or issues that I believe could be due to a shell holder, I go straight for the good stuff and pull out (or order

) the Hornady version.

For the record, I'm not so obsessive about my tools that I sit in my basement measuring shell holders for no apparent reason. It started out of necessity - trying to figure out why I couldn't set the shoulder back on some .243 Win brass that was fired in one of my rifles.
After I discovered that most of the issue was due to the Lee shell holder that I was using, I measured quite a few more and discovered trends...

For general use, RCBS, Redding, Lyman, Wilson, and the other common brands are decent enough.
When I really care, I grab Hornady.
I avoid Lee most of the time, now.

Wendyj · July 16, 2015, 06:15 AM

I'm still new at this but everything has been working out good so far. Lots of help from this forum. I was going into meltdown mode spending 3 hours trying to get these bumped back correctly. I moved and twisted dies until they look old now. Lol. Small price for a shell holder. Learned another trick

July 14, 2015, 06:41 PM	#3
Wendyj Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2015 Location: North Georgia Posts: 1,372	I'm using #2 Lee she'll holder. I seated ram to she'll holder as per instructions in dies. Turned the 1/4 turn also. They just get longer. Backing up or going down. Federal and Remington brass. They are clambering in my rifle ok. Only way is to set dies just touching she'll holder. I don't know if it's because it was new factory ammo or not. Only fired once from factory box. Using full length Hornady sizing die. They were fired in my rifle. __________________ God is NOT dead!!!!

July 14, 2015, 07:54 PM	#4
jepp2 Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Loveland, CO Posts: 1,476	If I understand your problem, you cannot set the shoulder back sufficiently on once fired brass with your new Hornady die? First suggestion, your adjustments are too coarse to achieve the 0.002 shoulder setback you desire. Your words: 2 turns backwards and 2 turns forward is way too much. You don't mention the type press you are using. If you do really want to limit your setback to 0.002" you must ignore the directions that came with the die on how to adjust. Start by adjusting your die to lightly contact the shell holder with the ram in the up position. Take your decapping rod/expander out of your die. Measure a case before sizing, and lube and size it. Use the attached guide (courtesy of Unclenick) on how much to screw the die down until you achieve the desired shoulder setback. You know how to do this since you have done it with your Lee dies. It is possible that the combination of your Hornady die and Lee shell holder will not set back the shoulder sufficiently and your press is flexing too much. You can increase the amount the brass goes in the die by placing a feelers gauge under the case head in the shell holder. Trim as necessary to fit and if you use shim stock that is thin enough you can use more than one. If this results in adequate shoulder setback, you can remove material from the top of the shell holder (already suggested). It is much easier remove material from the shell holder than the die. Dies are very hard. Keep repeating using the same case. When you do get it setback the correct amount, you need to put the decapping rod/expander back in to properly size the neck. No use running it over the expander repeatedly while you are adjusting your die. Try another case. It might not be set back quite enough since it is only being sized once vs. the previous case that was sized several times. Adjust as necessary. __________________ NRA Benefactor Life member

July 14, 2015, 08:14 PM	#5
Wendyj Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2015 Location: North Georgia Posts: 1,372	I didn't mean 2 full turns at once. I was turning die in 1/16 to 1/4 inch turns until it had reached 2 turns. I tried it setting per directions. Raised cam. Stewed die until it touched the she'll holder. Started moving down in small increments. Tried to reverse the operation and move up in same increments. Think I'm going to just order the Lee dies. Couldn't find 260 but in one store and Hornady was it. Reviews on Midway show sizing die an issue. It didn't come with a she'll holder like Lee does. May find a number one at Acadamy. So far not a Hornady fan. Bullet seater probably going to have same issues. Dies are cheaper than bullets. Well, my cheap dies anyway. By the way a Lee progressive press __________________ God is NOT dead!!!!

July 15, 2015, 03:03 PM	#11
Wendyj Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2015 Location: North Georgia Posts: 1,372	I'm not sure what issue was but my Wilson guage came today with bullets and trimmer. Picked up a Hornady #1 shell holder and fired a case. Used guage and barrel to check. Perfect. Went from fired at 3.623 to sized at 3.621. Bolt is firm but not too snug. Loaded one Sierra match King. Dead on. Hornady she'll holder is thicker than Lees. Not sure if that was an issue or not but for me it's fixed. Time to trim weigh powder and load. Thanks for everyone's help on here. I was losing my mind. Metal. I had already sized all but 2. The ones that fit in my chamber I had given an extra /4 turn. Sorry for the confusion. __________________ God is NOT dead!!!!

July 16, 2015, 12:36 AM	#13
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	I'm glad you figured it out. As F. Guffey brought up - shell holders are typically fairly consistent. ...But I have found that they do vary. Lee shell holders, in particular, are inconsistent dimensionally. (According to my measurements.) Most important is the term that I use (and rubbed off on F. Guffey): "Deck height". This is the distance from the base of the cartridge to the top of the shell holder. The standard dimension is 0.125". However, Lee shell holders tend to be on the thick side, if they deviate from that. As such, you can run into problems exactly like what you were experiencing: inability to bump the shoulder. What you ended up with -- I assume because you figured matching shell holder brand with die brand was a good idea -- is actually exactly what I was going to suggest. Hornady shell holders are the most consistent shell holders that I've measured. If I run into shell holder issues, or issues that I believe could be due to a shell holder, I go straight for the good stuff and pull out (or order ) the Hornady version. For the record, I'm not so obsessive about my tools that I sit in my basement measuring shell holders for no apparent reason. It started out of necessity - trying to figure out why I couldn't set the shoulder back on some .243 Win brass that was fired in one of my rifles. After I discovered that most of the issue was due to the Lee shell holder that I was using, I measured quite a few more and discovered trends... For general use, RCBS, Redding, Lyman, Wilson, and the other common brands are decent enough. When I really care, I grab Hornady. I avoid Lee most of the time, now. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

July 14, 2015, 05:38 PM	#1
Wendyj Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2015 Location: North Georgia Posts: 1,372	Hornady dies and setting shoulders back All my Lee dies I've been able to use Hornady headspace guage and adjust dies to bump neck back .002. I got my Hornady dies today and tried to use guage and I have moved dies backward and forward and I'm getting .002 more than factory fired brass. Once fired factory brass. Turning 1/16 to 1/4 inch at a time I've went as far as 2 full turns backward and 2 full turns forward. Can't get it. Remington and Federal brass. I had no problem with lee dies on 308 or 7 mag. Raised cam until it met she'll holder. Turned about a 1/16 to a 1/2 turn and lock and load headspace guage read perfect .002 bump. I'm getting longer than once fired instead of shorter. Imperial wax. 260 Remington once fired factory ammo. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. Any ideas. __________________ God is NOT dead!!!!

July 14, 2015, 06:34 PM	#2
PA-Joe Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2010 Location: NEPA Posts: 909	Which brand of shellholder are you using? They all have slightly different bench heights. Also you did raise the ram and screw the die down to touch the ram, lowered the ram and then turned it down 1/2 turn more before locking it in place correct? A cheap solution is to get a second shellholder and sand the top down a little. Were these fired in your rifle? If not see if they will chamber in your rifle.

July 15, 2015, 05:15 PM	#12
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	In the instance that you are oversizing the brass, and I think that is a possibility, case head separations will show up. If the fired case chambers without resistance, no shoulder bump was required.

July 16, 2015, 06:15 AM	#14
Wendyj Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2015 Location: North Georgia Posts: 1,372	I'm still new at this but everything has been working out good so far. Lots of help from this forum. I was going into meltdown mode spending 3 hours trying to get these bumped back correctly. I moved and twisted dies until they look old now. Lol. Small price for a shell holder. Learned another trick __________________ God is NOT dead!!!!