Antique Shotgun Shell Help....

KimberTLE.45 · February 18, 2009, 08:03 PM

I helped my step-father's friend purchase his first firearm today - a 4" stainless Ruger GP100. I went with him to go pick it up and agreed to teach him and his wife to shoot it, he wanted to give me something in return but I declined. He ended up giving me some shotgun shells he found while sorting through his father in laws basement. They are quite interesting and I have not been able to find much info on them. The Box reads "Peters VICTOR U.S. Property Smokeless Shotgun Shells" on top and "Peters Rustless VICTOR Special Heavy Loads 00 Buck - 9 Pellets" They are paper shells but in awesome conditon. Looking for some general info about them, value, maybe when they would have been produced.

Here are pics -

SDC · February 18, 2009, 08:10 PM

Shotshells really aren't my specialty, but if anyone knows about these, it'll be the guys at http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/forumintro.htm . HTH.

KimberTLE.45 · February 18, 2009, 08:38 PM

Thanks!

**Mike Irwin** · February 18, 2009, 10:03 PM

I'd say those shells were made during or just after World War I, hence the US Property marking.

The load is typical of the WW I trench gun load, very likely 3 1/4 dram equivalent.

Value I don't know, but they would have some value to a collector.

VaFisher · February 19, 2009, 05:24 AM

Goggle up Remington Peters for good info.

F. Guffey · February 19, 2009, 09:13 AM

http://www.ngpc.state.ne.us/nebland/...shotshells.asp

**Mike Irwin** · February 19, 2009, 10:31 AM

Remington absorbed Peters in the middle 1930s, these appear to have been made prior to that.

Really good article you linked, Guffey.

I'm going to move this into Curios & Relics.

bigbird34 · February 25, 2009, 03:54 PM

Most shotshell collectors are after "just" the box,and not the shells inside,the better the box,the higher the price paid ........if the box and shells are all original,your looking at app.$50.00 ,maybe more,The box you have is a two piece box(I believe top and bottom,and this makes it MORE collectable....)I'd be guessing around the 1930 time period ....but I'm not sure.....Hold onto it as a gift,it will only INCREASE in value....BB34

James K · February 25, 2009, 05:45 PM

Remington-DuPont absorbed Peters in the 1930's but Peters had such a good reputation that Remington continued to load cartridges with the Peters headstamp and boxes until well into the 1960's, and still uses the headstamp R-P for Remington-Peters. The tip off here is the DuPont trademark. Remington was owned by DuPont but the earlier Peters was not, so the shells date from after Remington-DuPont acquired Peters.

They may be of WWII manufacture, but shotguns were not used in combat in WWII. Other government uses for OO Buck cartridges could have been by federal LE officers, or military or prison guards.

Jim

**Mike Irwin** · February 25, 2009, 09:39 PM

Damn, missed that DuPont mark. You're spot on on that.

"They may be of WWII manufacture, but shotguns were not used in combat in WWII."

On that, however, you're not spot on on.

The Ithaca Model 37, the Savage 520/Browning Auto-5, and the Winchester Models 97 and 12 were all used fairly heavily in the Pacific and the China-Burma-India theater during World War II. There's even indications that shotguns went ashore in the initial waves on D-Day on June 6 in the hands of troops specially trained to clear out German bunkers and communications trenches, sort of a hearkening back to what their Fathers were doing in World War I.

The Marine Corps alone took delivery of over 100,000 shotguns for use during the war, many for combat operations in jungle conditions. Army troops were also issued shotguns for their excursions in jungle warfare in the Pacific.

As in World War I, waxed paper shells proved to be problematic, especially in jungle conditions. It was often found that, upon opening a box of shells, they were already swollen from the sea journey and high humidity.

Late in the war the military began to once again contract for brass shot shells, which were issued during the last 18 months of war.

The shotgun didn't see nearly as much use in Korea as it had during World War II. The longer ranges and mountainous terrain didn't make Korea good territory for shotguns. They were still there, but mainly for guard purposes, although there were some calls for shotguns to be used in city fighting, such as the battle to retake Seoul. I have also found references to shotguns being issued to machine gun teams to be used in close range defense against Chinese/North Korean wave attacks.

Vietnam, on the other hand, was a shotgun paradise. Ithaca was a major supplier of shotguns for combat operations in Vietnam. By that time plastic hulls had largely replaced paper, so the brass shell was a thing of the past.

I used to work with a guy who spent considerable time in Vietnam. He had a picture of him with some of his buddies, taken during a sweep. He's carrying, believe it or not, one of the probably relatively few Winchester Model 97s that was still in inventory during the middle 1960s.

I think the main reason why so few people realize how heavily the shotgun was used during World War II is because there was no really catchy "back story" behind it as there was in World War I.

In WW I, of course, the Germans threatened to execute any American caught with a shotgun, while the Americans on the other hand threatened to execute any German caught with the saw-back bayonet.

The Germans withdrew the saw-back bayonet, but the Americans never withdrew the shotgun, and neither side executed anyone.

In fact, there's a passage in, IIRC, "All Quiet On the Western Front" that talks about how the protagonist, by then a grizzled front-line veteran, helps get newly arrived recruits up to speed, including taking the saw-back bayonet away from one.

February 18, 2009, 08:03 PM	#1
KimberTLE.45 Member Join Date: June 25, 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 30	Antique Shotgun Shell Help.... I helped my step-father's friend purchase his first firearm today - a 4" stainless Ruger GP100. I went with him to go pick it up and agreed to teach him and his wife to shoot it, he wanted to give me something in return but I declined. He ended up giving me some shotgun shells he found while sorting through his father in laws basement. They are quite interesting and I have not been able to find much info on them. The Box reads "Peters VICTOR U.S. Property Smokeless Shotgun Shells" on top and "Peters Rustless VICTOR Special Heavy Loads 00 Buck - 9 Pellets" They are paper shells but in awesome conditon. Looking for some general info about them, value, maybe when they would have been produced. Here are pics -

February 18, 2009, 08:10 PM	#2
SDC Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: People's Republic of Kanada Posts: 1,652	Shotshells really aren't my specialty, but if anyone knows about these, it'll be the guys at http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/forumintro.htm . HTH. __________________ Gun control in Canada: making the streets safer for rapists, muggers, and other violent criminals since 1936.

February 25, 2009, 03:54 PM	#8
bigbird34 Senior Member Join Date: September 21, 2007 Location: N.W.Vermont Posts: 291	Shotshell collectors.... Most shotshell collectors are after "just" the box,and not the shells inside,the better the box,the higher the price paid ........if the box and shells are all original,your looking at app.$50.00 ,maybe more,The box you have is a two piece box(I believe top and bottom,and this makes it MORE collectable....)I'd be guessing around the 1930 time period ....but I'm not sure.....Hold onto it as a gift,it will only INCREASE in value....BB34

February 25, 2009, 05:45 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Remington-DuPont absorbed Peters in the 1930's but Peters had such a good reputation that Remington continued to load cartridges with the Peters headstamp and boxes until well into the 1960's, and still uses the headstamp R-P for Remington-Peters. The tip off here is the DuPont trademark. Remington was owned by DuPont but the earlier Peters was not, so the shells date from after Remington-DuPont acquired Peters. They may be of WWII manufacture, but shotguns were not used in combat in WWII. Other government uses for OO Buck cartridges could have been by federal LE officers, or military or prison guards. Jim Last edited by James K; February 25, 2009 at 07:20 PM.

February 18, 2009, 08:38 PM	#3
KimberTLE.45 Member Join Date: June 25, 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 30	Thanks!

February 18, 2009, 10:03 PM	#4
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	I'd say those shells were made during or just after World War I, hence the US Property marking. The load is typical of the WW I trench gun load, very likely 3 1/4 dram equivalent. Value I don't know, but they would have some value to a collector.

February 19, 2009, 05:24 AM	#5
VaFisher Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2006 Posts: 596	Goggle up Remington Peters for good info.

February 19, 2009, 09:13 AM	#6
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	http://www.ngpc.state.ne.us/nebland/...shotshells.asp

February 19, 2009, 10:31 AM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	Remington absorbed Peters in the middle 1930s, these appear to have been made prior to that. Really good article you linked, Guffey. I'm going to move this into Curios & Relics.

February 25, 2009, 09:39 PM	#10
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	Damn, missed that DuPont mark. You're spot on on that. "They may be of WWII manufacture, but shotguns were not used in combat in WWII." On that, however, you're not spot on on. The Ithaca Model 37, the Savage 520/Browning Auto-5, and the Winchester Models 97 and 12 were all used fairly heavily in the Pacific and the China-Burma-India theater during World War II. There's even indications that shotguns went ashore in the initial waves on D-Day on June 6 in the hands of troops specially trained to clear out German bunkers and communications trenches, sort of a hearkening back to what their Fathers were doing in World War I. The Marine Corps alone took delivery of over 100,000 shotguns for use during the war, many for combat operations in jungle conditions. Army troops were also issued shotguns for their excursions in jungle warfare in the Pacific. As in World War I, waxed paper shells proved to be problematic, especially in jungle conditions. It was often found that, upon opening a box of shells, they were already swollen from the sea journey and high humidity. Late in the war the military began to once again contract for brass shot shells, which were issued during the last 18 months of war. The shotgun didn't see nearly as much use in Korea as it had during World War II. The longer ranges and mountainous terrain didn't make Korea good territory for shotguns. They were still there, but mainly for guard purposes, although there were some calls for shotguns to be used in city fighting, such as the battle to retake Seoul. I have also found references to shotguns being issued to machine gun teams to be used in close range defense against Chinese/North Korean wave attacks. Vietnam, on the other hand, was a shotgun paradise. Ithaca was a major supplier of shotguns for combat operations in Vietnam. By that time plastic hulls had largely replaced paper, so the brass shell was a thing of the past. I used to work with a guy who spent considerable time in Vietnam. He had a picture of him with some of his buddies, taken during a sweep. He's carrying, believe it or not, one of the probably relatively few Winchester Model 97s that was still in inventory during the middle 1960s. I think the main reason why so few people realize how heavily the shotgun was used during World War II is because there was no really catchy "back story" behind it as there was in World War I. In WW I, of course, the Germans threatened to execute any American caught with a shotgun, while the Americans on the other hand threatened to execute any German caught with the saw-back bayonet. The Germans withdrew the saw-back bayonet, but the Americans never withdrew the shotgun, and neither side executed anyone. In fact, there's a passage in, IIRC, "All Quiet On the Western Front" that talks about how the protagonist, by then a grizzled front-line veteran, helps get newly arrived recruits up to speed, including taking the saw-back bayonet away from one.