Reloading without resizing?

[BumbleBug]

This may be just a false memory, but another thread jogged this thinking.

I remember reading an article a long, long time ago by Harvey Donaldson (yes, I'm an old guy) & he was talking about a bench rifle that he had along with a block of some 30 odd specially prepped cases, probably in his "wasp" caliber, no doubt. What he was saying is that those cases would out last the life of his bench rifle. His rifle obviously had a tight neck & he had so selected & prepped his cases so they never needed resizing. Upon firing, the neck would expand then contract back to a diameter sufficient to hold a bullet again. He just deprimed/primed, charged & straight-line seated a new bullet with a hand die, then went out & won another match!

I realize such ammo could not withstand rough handling & this was probably only good for the bench, but was this ever an accepted practice? I can't say as I've seen this technique mentioned again(?)

...bug

[mikld]

I remember sumpin' like that, long time ago (or mebbe I just read it somewhere). I don't see any problems using that method if rounds are loaded singularly. Old target shooters even loaded a bullet into the chamber, then followed it with a primed and charged case...

[Hunter Customs]

I wonder how much effect that would have on the pressure the round produce.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

[454PB]

Yup, it will work, but it's not user friendly for field applications. Removing a loaded round from the chamber can be tricky if the bullet has engraved the rifling, and Harvey liked to place the bullet as far forwards in the chamber as possible.

[Sierra280]

Reload without resizing at all??! Heresy!!!

I suppose I could see it working in the sort of situation described, but I'll continue at least neck sizing everything.

[Bezoar]

I read an article about bench rest shooters with single shots that were doing the same thing. so it cant be heresy. just hard to deal with if the bullet stays in the rifleing when you pull the case out.

[Paul B.]

"Reload without resizing at all??! Heresy!!!"

Not necessarily so. The old time Schuetzen rifles were loaded by first inserting the bullet into the rifling and then a charged case placed into the breech.
I sometimes shoot a 220 gr. cast bullet in a Browning B70 in 30-06 Shuetzen style with a special tool I made up. I have a Lyman two cavity mold #311284 where one bullet cast with the proper gas check and the other the same bullet sans provision for the check, IE in plain base form. I use a couple of Lyman 31o tools one to deprime and other to prime. Powder measure is set for the charge I use for the load. The plain base bullet cavity has a small mark placed with a punch on the nose and the single cartridge case has a witness mark filed into the rim. These are so I an orient the bullet and case as close to exactly the each time I chamber a round. On a good day with no wind I can usually get .75 to one inch groups with that set up from the bench. Lots of fun with a nice slow leisurely form of shooting. I've probably run that one case 300 times or more and the primer pocket is getting a bit loose. My most accurate charge to date is 10.0 gr. of Unique. Never have chronographed the load but I estimate it to be about 1200 FPS, give or take 50 FPS.
I believe most of the bench rest shooting of that now long gone period was done in the same manner.
Paul B.

[LE-28]

Ok, so what happens when the bullet doesn't line up with the shell when you close the bolt? I think that would be a problem. They apparently were using boat tailed bullets to pull this off.

Interesting... enough thought on it. I'll pass.

[smokin54]

Find the writings of Varmit Al , He claims to do it

[old roper]

BumbleBug, You can do it with tight neck and 6ppc neck would be .257 spring back hold bullet they called it zero neck clearance. I got my reamer from Lester Bruno was a Henriksen.

I never did it with Laupa brass I used the Sako 220 Russian brass for the 6ppc.

[SpadeTrump]

Picked up a 91/30 last week. got it shooting 1" at 50 yards, 25 mph winds with hand loading. today I made a mistake and loaded one of my fired cases. I couldn't believe how much neck tension it had. I had to use pliers with cardboard to pull the bullet! first thing I did was get on google and see this post to find out if this would be safe or not. then I loaded 4 spent rounds with no sizing what so ever. shot them. they had better accuracy (not much) than the full length sized cases! I loaded them a second time (3rd firing) without any sizing and they were a little loose. I just made sure I lined them up in my chamber carefully and pushed it all the way up with my pinkey so the bullet wouldnt move its posistion. then I would shut the bolt. I was going to do it a 4th time but I know it would have worked. by the 3rd firing they were about the same tension as the 3rd firing. so for the 4th try I neck sized them about 1/8" and that held the bullet Very well. I will have to wait for a day with less than the 18-30 with 50 mph gusts I was shooting in today. I never had a bullet more than 2" and most groups were 1" I will determine if my rifle likes full or half or 1/5th neck sizing. no sizing or full sizing. I sure do wish my .303 would behave this way! wow I am saving on brass with the 7.62x54R

[reynolds357]

You can do it with pretty much any rifle You want to shoot single Shot. So keep in mind this was in the time that most bench rest shooters thought no neck tension was the perfect amount of neck tension,.

[jmorris]

I do it all the time with my muzzle loaders...

Anything with a case I will at least partially size the neck.

[SpadeTrump]

Originally Posted by reynolds357

You can do it with pretty much any rifle You want to shoot single Shot. So keep in mind this was in the time that most bench rest shooters thought no neck tension was the perfect amount of neck tension,.

I disagree that you can do this with most any rifle. Based on my personal rifles. This is the first i have had that the neck will expand then contract back to a diameter sufficient to hold a bullet again. I don't think it's common but I could be wrong.

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by LE28

Ok, so what happens when the bullet doesn't line up with the shell when you close the bolt?

Not an issue. The bullets are lead and are seated into the throat so the base is already at or beyond the mouth of a chambered case. IIRC, there was competition between those seating the bullet from the breech and those seating from the muzzle using a false muzzle. Harry Pope made rifles that could be loaded both ways, letting the shooter figure out what worked best for him, but I believe he thought the false muzzle loading technique produced the best ultimate bullet alignment.

There are custom rifles made with narrower-than-standard necks. The maker stamps the barrel with the neck dimension so the owner can outside turn his necks to fit. If you leave a clearance of only half a thousandth, the bullet will still be released normally, and the neck will mostly spring back. Especially if the pressures aren't too high. The 219 Donaldson Wasp as well as the .25-20, .32-20, and 38-55 cartridges a lot of the old timers used in single-shot rifles are all rated for peak pressures in the 30,000-42,000 psi range and were probably often fired below their maximums. That would mean un-resized cases didn't tend to get tight after just a few firings.

So, with tight chamber necks and modest pressures, I don't see a reason non-resized cases wouldn't work. But there is some careful case prep needed to make the most of that approach.

[F. Guffey]

I realize such ammo could not withstand rough handling & this was probably only good for the bench, but was this ever an accepted practice? I can't say as I've seen this technique mentioned again(?)

Bug, we have had members that recommended we all do like the bench resters; he claimed bench resters full length sized their cases and he insisted they have been doing it for decades. And then there was the therefore we should do like the bench retsters. and full length size our cases ever time.

I explained the bench rester rifle cost more than any 20 of my rifles, I explained to members how much information was omitted to make that statement. SO? he modified his little saying by adding the part about matching the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face with the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head, and then adjusting for clearance.

there was the bench rester that set a world record' he said he ordered the rifle, he ordered the cases. After receiving the cases he loaded them and headed for the range with the rifle. No one noticed he did nothing to the cases, he simply loaded them, chambered them, pulled the trigger and won.

He did his part, the rifle did its part and the ammo/handloads did their part.

F. Guffey

[reynolds357]

I disagree that you can do this with most any rifle. Based on my personal rifles. This is the first i have had that the neck will expand then contract back to a diameter sufficient to hold a bullet again. I don't think it's common but I could be wrong.

you are going to have to define "hold". What I am talking about is not fall out while I put it in the rifle.

[reynolds357]

Bug, we have had members that recommended we all do like the bench resters; he claimed bench resters full length sized their cases and he insisted they have been doing it for decades. And then there was the therefore we should do like the bench retsters. and full length size our cases ever time.

Bench rest shooters do full length size. That statement is correct. "Full length" does not mean returning the brass to SAAMI minimum specification. It means sizing the neck, shoulder, and body. There is no qualification on how much you have to size them. My 30 BR and 6 PPC dies are built to my chamber. You put the die in the press and cam it over and you still have a case that is the slightest bit sticky when bolt closes.

[Unclenick]

I think benchrest competitors have done everything under the sun at one time or another. For many years, and in the Guinness Book of World Records, was a past world record group loaded on a Lee Loader. Twenty years ago bump dies cut from blanks using the same reamer that cut the chamber were the cat's meow for sizing mainly just at the shoulder before sizing the neck separately.

[reynolds357]

Separate neck and body dies are still popular. I use them on my 6BR Norma. Why? They came with the rifle.

[old roper]

I shot BR and I've yet to see chamber reamer that will resize a 6ppc case. A chamber reamer make good seating die and make good neck die.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...ody-blank-kit/

[Nathan]

I shot BR and I've yet to see chamber reamer that will resize a 6ppc case. A chamber reamer make good seating die and make good neck die.

I agree, but it was popular at one time...they made bump dies with neck bushings that were cut with the chamber reamer.....why? Because the neck angle would be perfect and the walls could be held to chamber shape while sizing the neck and giving a small bump to the shoulder...remember, these guys are looking to bump 0.0005-0.001”, not the 0.002” most fl users are bumping.

Then there were/are the fl die folks that are sizing the whole case, but those dies are set up for sizing the case minimally in the diameter....probably 0.0003” and about 0.001” bump, and usually a neck bushing set to 0.0005” under bullet diameter...these number are approximate.

Finally, there was a group that bought Lapua brass and ran it without any sizing or brass prep....these guns were mostly chambered for 6mm PPC (Lapua) which meant the neck area was sized for the case to safely expand, then “spring back” to the diameter before firing. A really cool idea, if you ask me!


Remember none of this can be duplicated in standard commercial actions and barrels as they are setup to balance weight and strength....this means they flex in the bolt and chamber slightly, creating brass which needs more sizing. Big actions, large shank barrels, etc

[Unclenick]

Yep, bump dies. There are commercial dies that Forster calls bump dies, but if you don't have an exact match to the chamber around the perimeter, I don't see how you can make them that don't also size the case diameters a little. If the die were allowed to be wider than anybody's chamber, trying to extrude the shoulder down closer to the head would fatten the case and keep it from going back into that chamber. So they have to err narrow.

[edward hogan]

re: using a reamer to make a tight-chamber sizing die...

Custom finishing reamer to cut the rifle chamber. These are pretty spendy. Use a standard finish reamer that has been honed a couple thousandths, or 15 ten-thousandths to match the chamber for minimum effective sizing and you are in business. Most of the reamer makers offer sharpening services; maybe they also can do a honing job to given specs?

I have long wondered why sizing dies are made of such greatly hardened steel. Carbide is pretty explanatory, for no lube sizing; but can sizing brass cases actually wear stainless or other non-leaded steel alloys to any significant degree over even 50,000 sized cases? Cases are lubed to begin with...

I modified a Redding S .243aI sizer to work for a .308ai barrel I reamed. Taking the heat treat out turned the die a royal blue. Had to open the neck, but there were no other options for a .308AI bushing die. Worked great!

I am a Big Believer in short oal chambers for accuracy and to eliminate most case stretch. Have never done a minimum OD chamber though. Would seem to be the ticket for harnessing all the pressure your powder charge generates and way reduce brass being 'worked'.

[old roper]

Neil Jones made shoulder bushing.

http://www.neiljones.com/html/threaded_dies.html