Ready to reload, but what about...

[adephue]

TFL Friends,

I bought an RCBS RockChucker Supreme reloading kit online and dies and a shell plate for .204 Ruger (I will also be reloading .308 Winchester). I read through a Lyman reloading manual and almost everything makes sense except:

1. How do I figure out what the optimal bullet seating depth for my chamber is?

2. How do I know where to focus my realoding with regard to bullet weight and the amount of twist in my barrell? I am about 99% sure that I have a 1:12 twist ratio on the .204 and a 1:10 ratio for the .308. Is there a mathematical forumla that will help me determine which bullet weight or shape, etc is preferable?

3. What is the difference between sets of dies? Some boxes of dies have two dies and others have three.

Any other tips for a beginner would be very, very much appreciated. The press should arrive by the end of the week so I am hoping to get started soon.

[beezaur]

You need to get a reloading manual and read it. Twice.

1) The way I do rifle seating depth (bolt action) is to ink up a bullet with a sharpie, stick it in a fired case a little ways, and chamber the round. Both the case and the rifling will leave marks on the bullet. When you take it out of the gun, you can measure its length and set the die with it. Some bullets like to be seated into the lands; some like to have a little jump.

2) You can measure the twist in your bore by running a tight patch through on a cleaning rod. Make marks on the rod, easier said than done. Probably you will have to do it a few times and take an average. I don't know about .204, but 1:10 is a fastish twist for a .308. You should be able to do long, pointy bullets like 190-gr match bullets with no problem, maybe even heavier. Bullet stability depands on a lot of things. The minimum required twist is a trial and error thing as much as theoretical. But 1:10 will handle some pretty long bullets.

3) There are all kinds of different die sets. Generally a 2-die set (rifle) has one die for resizing the entire case, and one die for seating the bullet.

The only tip I can give is to be sure of each step before you do it. You don't want to rush ahead and stick a case in a die or make a dangerous load.

Have fun!

Scott

[XD-Guy]

IMO you need 4 dies to make a round 1) resizer die 2) expander die 3) bullet seating die 4) taper or factory crimp die

[beezaur]

When I load .243 Win, I use two main bullets: Hornady 105-gr A-Max and Berger 95-gr VLD.

The VLDs are the highest BC (ballistic coefficient) bullet that will work in my 1:9" twist barrel. They like to be seated so that, when loaded into the rifle, they press into the rifling 0.020" or so. VLDs (Very Low Drag) bullets are like that most times. I shoot a steel plate with these bullets at around 800 yards with a Ruger M77 MkII Target rifle set in a McMillan A5 stock. Below is an exceptionally pretty hit that I just had to take a picture of before I painted over it.



By the way, you have to have a special scope mount angled down a bit (mine's 20 MOA) to get enough scope adjustment for that range.

The A-Maxes are my hunting bullets, so I want to be able to load, onload, chamber and unchamber often without disturbing the bullet's seating depth or worse, leaving a bullet stuck in the throat after unchambering a round. I seat those off the lands a little bit. They do fine for accuracy, something like 3/4 MOA at range.

My loading procedure for both rounds is the same except for seating depth.

The first thing I do is decap the cases with a decapping die. The flasholes often get media stuck in them during cleaning, but I would rather punch that out by hand than have something go funny trying to deprime a case half full of media.

I clean my cases in a vibratory cleaner until shiny. I don't worry about getting the carbon out of the inside of the necks, since I believe it actually helps consistent neck tension. If you have bullets loaded in squeaky-clean cases, after a while the bullet jacket will "stick" to the case because the metal crystals in the jacket and case try to incorporate one another in their structure when pressed together. Malleable metals are just like that.

I size the cases in a plain vanilla RCBS full length sizing die, so that I "bump" the case shoulder back only about 0.001" to 0.002". You need a special attachment to measure that. It attaches to one side of a dial caliper and allows you measure from the case head to a "datum" line on the shoulder. The attachment basically is an aluminum tube that clamps on the caliper so that you are measuring off the shoulder and not the mouth. You can get them from Sinclair International, I think Stony Point makes them. I lube the cases with my fingers using Imperial Sizing Die Wax -- cheap and very effective. I don't like lube pads because they accumulate junk, which I worry will scratch my die.

The reason I full-length (FL) size and no longer neck size is that the cases go into the chamber very easily, FL sizing does not shorten case life, and it still gives me extremely good accuracy. Besides, if I FL size I don't have to worry how many times the case has been fired and whether it needs body sized. I just FL size the same every time.

I uniform my primer pockets and flashholes using special cutting tools after the first firing, and clean the pockets after efery firing. I seat the primers with a hand tool from Sinclair that has a very sensitive feel, and I check depth with the tip of my finger.

I weigh all of my charges because I shoot at long range. Some throw charges in a measure instead. I am too cheap to buy a good measure, so I weigh them.

I seat the bullets in a hand die and arbor press. This maintains super allignment in the finished round, and provides much easier adjustment of the die. I also have Redding Competition dies that work well too.

I do not crimp these cartridges. The A-Maxes are seated fairly deep and held tightly by the case neck. The VLDs get loaded one at a time. I have no need for crimping.

So that is my .243 process. Everybody has their own ideal method. There are lots and lots of perfectly good routines to go through. It can be really confusing at first. There is a lot to it.

Scott

Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting

P.S. I was thinking about the "normal" FL sizing die process. The procedure is to screw the die down until it makes solid contact with the shellholder, or something like that. The purpose is so that loaded rounds go into the chamber easily. However, what happens is that, each time the case is fired, it has to stretch a little to fill up the chamber. Normally this means the whole cartridge is driven ahead by the firing pin, then the case expands and grabs onto the chamber walls. The pressure continues to rise, pushing the head back against the breechface. So you get a lot of case stretching at the head, and will start to see head separation after a few firings. Be very wary of that. The way I FL size, just bumping the shoulder, prevents head separation and extends case life from maybe 5 to 10 firings to perhaps 30 firings. Failure with the "bump" method normally is either primer pockets eventually getting loose or neck splits -- no big deal, no safety hazard. Failure with excessive sizing is head separation. Head separation = bad.

[cdoc42]

Here's how I determine when the bullet engages the rifling. Note that you must do this (or any procedure) with every brand of bullet because the "ogive" (point where the rifling engages the bullet) differs on each brand of bullets.

Drop a bullet into your chamber and tap it against the rifling lightly. Take a cleaning rod with a small plastic muzzle protector (Remington makes such a rod), insert it at the muzzle and drop it slowly until you contact the bullet. Make a half circle against the rod with a thin magic marker, using the muzzle protector as a straight edge.

Tap the bullet out and seat it into a dummy case (no primer, no powder). How deeply you seat it will take some expereince. You do not, obviously, want to seat it too deep. Too lightly may stick it in the chamber, then you eject the case and have to knock the bullet out through the muzzle and start all over. In any event, seat the bullet to an obviously long length, then chamber it with your bolt. It should chamber with perhaps a liitle difficulty. Then reinsert the cleaning rod and make another mark with the magic marker, this time going completely around the rod.

You should see one circle. The complete circle should cover the original half circle. That dummy round is now know to be at the "leade" or point where it engages the rifling. If there is any discrepancy between the two circles, do it over again. Once you have one circle, measure the round using a Stoney Point Comparator. You cannot measure simple overall length. You need to know the length from the ogive to the base of the case. I call this the OAL-OG. Now subtract 0.01", 0.015" and 0.02" from that OAL-OG and you will have your seating depth 0.01" away from the leade, 0.015, etc. If you have a clip in your rifle these rounds may be too long to seat as they won't fit the clip in many cases. Then you need to seat the bullets to fit the clip, perhaps giving up some accuracy. If you don't have a clip most times the bullets can be seated out as described here.

[30Cal]

I've seen cartridges limited in length by the magazine, but never by a clip.

Here's how I find the lands. Seat a bullet out real long in a sized case. Stuff the cartridge in the chamber. If you need to use a thumbnail or screwdriver to get it out, then the bullet is contacting the lands. Seat the bullet progressively deeper in 0.005" increments until the cartridge will drop out of the chamber by gravity alone. Done.

Cheaper bullets will be less sensitive to seating depth. Long match VLD bullets generally work best when the jump is minimal.

Unless you really know what you're doing, I would recommend you seat the bullet short of the lands.

Ty

[castnblast]

Whenever I start reloading, especially for a beginner, Stick to the standard specs for that cartridge, AKA SAAMI Specs. These are the specs that ar noted in your RL Manual for each specific cartridge. There are simply too many variables to understand, and quite frankly, on your 204, I doubt the seating depth will be a huge issue. Just make sure you have a good micrometer, and measure each round. Also, on the 204, most of the bullets are in the 30-40 gr. range. Twist rate of 1:12 or even 1:14 will more than stabalize that bullet. There is only one semi heavy bullet on the market for that round which is a 50 grainer. That round should still develop pleanty of velocity to stabalize imo, but experimentation will determine that as stated before. I like loading 4 shot test groups in .5gr weight of powder increments. This may take up to 7 or more test groups. Look at your point of impact. The tightest group is your load. I like to take that group and micro adjust my powder charge by going in two .10gr increments up and down from my load, to see where my sweet spot is. Sometimes it makes a difference, sometimes it does not. You will likely see a greater difference w/ the .204 than with the .308. This is not based on experience w/ either, but similar calibers...22-250 and 7mm-08.

Also, you do not need to crimp your brass for most rifle cartridges. Especially bolt actions...there really is no reason to put a crimp on a round for a bolt gun.

Remeber...consistancy is king. ALWAYS do the following:

One thing at a time...
zero your scale evertime you sit at your bench
check your scale, and recheck your scale
check your manual,
mark your rounds
keep a log.

Here is my routine, and I don't change it...ever...You may come up with your own, but this works for me. Doing the same routine everytime, every round ensures nothing is ever forgotten.

1. Lube Brass
2. resize all brass
3. Clean Flashholes
4. Trim
5. Chamfer necks inside, then outside.
6. Insert primers
The above is done in single steps with entire lot of brass, and sorted appropriately. I always complete each step before leaving my bench. i.e. I size all the brass I'm working with place in a tray marked sized brass if I must do a non loading job...aka honey do's...

The next items are done as a single step, all in the following order. mainly because I hate spilling powder. Again, I'm not the RL god...This works for me, and keeps my stuff straight, and helps me avoid errors, which is why routine is so important...

7. ZERO SCALE CHECK, RECHECK.
8. Dump powder into case
9. Measure powder charge on scale
10. powder trickle to exact weight desired
11. RECHECK DESIRED CHARGE IS WHAT IS MEASURED!
12. Seat Bullet
13. measure seated bullet on Micrometer
14. adjust seating if necessary, if desired depth is made place in bag for test rounds or tray for established rounds.
15. Mark finished rounds appropriatley with the following info:
Date, caliber, powder charge, powder type, powder lot, bullet weight, bullet manufacturer, and any other pertinant info you feel you may need to recall one day.

16. GO BLAST AWAY!


One other note, since you are a beginner, don't go off trying to load test rounds for both right off the bat. Work on one at a time, go to the range and see what happens w/ your groups. Also, Don't try to use the same powder for both guns. You may find one that will work, but most likely, each will need their own unique powder. Have fun, and send me a private message or email if you need further assistance, or have questions. You'll get a lot of help on this forum, and there is a ton of knowledge here to gain. Good Luck!

[dirty habit]

Hey there, when i started reloading about a year ago, the best book i came across was "The ABC's of Reloading" by Dean Grennel, an absolute beginners book answering all the questions i had but thought mightve been too simple to ask...

[cdoc42]

"I've seen cartridges limited in length by the magazine, but never by a clip."

You sure about this? I'm speaking about bolt actions, now. The magazine itself is usually larger than the cartridge length. A clip uses a lot of that space and when you load the cartridges they must fit inside the clip so by necessity are shorter than those going into the original magazine. At least that's how all my Browning A-Bolts are, and a Remington 700 in which I installed an after-market clip.

[amamnn]

1- beginners should not try to jam seat for factory rifles--get a manual and use the OAL listed for the present.

2- yes, many rifles, especially those with detachable magazines will not be able to take advantage (if any) from very long seating. I have 3 that are like that; i.e. the magazine will not allow rounds to be inserted that are much over SAMMI standard OAL.

Seating your bullet closer to the lands may or may not help you depending upon the leade of your chamber/barrel. If carried to extremes by people who do not know how to do it properly or even if it can be done in their rifles, attempts to jam seat can cause extreme degradation of accuracy and accelerated throat erosion. Jam seating will definitely increase the start pressure generated in your load. If seated too far out, and not actually seated in the lands, your bullet will not be gripped by the neck (proper neck tension is a must) and can in some cases actually enter the lands out of alignment worse than if "normal" seating is used. Not everything we do in BR translates well into loading for general use in factory rifles. Jam seating and extreme seating length may be the most misunderstood and misused BR practice today in the general population of reloaders.

[cdoc42]

Yes, it can be an interesting hobby.

I just got a 6mmPPC and fired off 50 rounds then resized the cases using a Redding BR die set. All cases were same length. All powder charges measured to 0.0 grain difference. All bullets seated to 0.015" and all OAL measured ogive to base of case for every round loaded.
Most chambered easily. Two wouldn't chamber at all and in fact were so difficult to extract I needed a wooden block and a hammer to open the bolt even though the bolt wasn't even fully closed. I measured those cases with a micrometer at the mouth, neck and shoulder. No difference from unfired rounds that fit. Remeasured ogive to base, seating the same. Pulled the bullets and the cases chambered. In one case it was a Hornady 65gr V-max and the other was a Berger 68gr match HP. The only thing I can figure is even though my measurements appeared to be 0.015" for all, these two must have jammed into the rifling. Any thoughts?

[brickeyee]

Clips are used to load magazines.

[Bullet94]

beezaur You need to get a reloading manual and read it. Twice.

castnblast Whenever I start reloading, especially for a beginner, Stick to the standard specs for that cartridge, AKA SAAMI Specs. These are the specs that ar noted in your RL Manual for each specific cartridge.

dirty habit Hey there, when i started reloading about a year ago, the best book i came across was "The ABC's of Reloading" by Dean Grennel, an absolute beginners book answering all the questions i had but thought mightve been too simple to ask

amamnn 1- beginners should not try to jam seat for factory rifles--get a manual and use the OAL listed for the present.

Above is some excellent advice.
For bullet weights and twist rates look here –

http://www.shilen.com/calibersAndTwists.html

[Bullet94]

cdoc42

In some 6PPC chambers the neck dimension is very tight. Could be your brass. Different brands of brass have different thickness. Are you neck turning? Could have been something in the chamber like unburnt powder maybe just dirty?

[mrawesome22]

This is how I determine "ogive on the lands" for any given bullet. Take an empty case, no powder, no primer, and cut a slit vertically in the neck until you just get into the shoulder. Now get rid of all burs. You can keep this case and use it for every new bullet you want to try. Take a bullet and barely seat it into this case. Chamber it in your rifle. This gives you "ogive on the lands" for that particular bullet. From this measurement I seat them .030" deeper. .030" off the lands always seems to give me the best accuracy for some reason.