Potential new CAS shooter... Help?

[azredhawk44]

I went to Ben Avery shooting range this weekend and they had a shooting expo. Had fun with the cowboy guys, really like 45LC. Also shot a 480 Ruger SRH, but that's another story.

I recreationally shoot a 44mag, and really like the cartridge. If possible, I'd like to get into CAS without getting another reloading die and introducing another cartridge to my lineup.

Can I get into CAS with a 44mag/44special and compete in the same league as the 45LC guys? Or at least a .429 diameter bullet (44-40)?

All my wheelguns right now are DA guns... I need to get myself a good SA sixgun... but I'd prefer a Remington copy rather than a colt if possible. Anyone make a 44mag/44special/44-40 remington cartridge revolver with the firing pin mounted on the hammer rather than a transfer bar safety? Will also consider 45LC and colt copies, but Taurus/Ruger are out due to their transfer bar safeties. Pietta and Uberti still reputable for colt clones? I'd prefer to stick between 5-6 inch barrel length.

Also, keeping in the 44 caliber restriction ideally, who makes a levergun that's inexpensive but reliable? Shorter carbines win out over longer octagonal barrels with me for this purpose... Might want one of the heavy barrel for 45-70 or 54 hawkens muzzleloader later on, though. Again, a different thread.

With the shotgun, what is the most inexpensive, SxS acceptible and reliable 12-guage out there?

Also, the girlfriend tried it out with 38special and 20 guage. She liked it too, except for the shotgun. Any lighter guages available out there to compete with? Or can she get into it and avoid the shotgun somehow?

[mec]

here's a good place to look
http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/

.44 special is a good cb action revolver but most of the .44 rifles are in .44/40 This usually takes a .427 rather than a .429 bullet and Meister will sell the same bullets in either diameter. On the other hand, you can find a few rifles in .45 colt to go with the revolvers.

[azredhawk44]

Well, shotgun I am looking at a Remington SPR-220.

I'd like to give one of Taurus' pump guns a try, and maybe I'll just have to go with 45LC...

Is Ruger the only company that makes a single action 44-40 or 44mag revolver (leave out freedomarms/magnumresearch ... too expensive)?

Does USFA make any 1858 Remmie clones? Anything in 44? Even a SAA clone?

[Jim Watson]

Well, Hartford Armory will make you a Remington pattern revolver in .44 magnum but they are $1495. And you need two.

EMF has Eyetalian Remingtons in .44-40 but that does not really have enough in common with .44 special or magnum to matter; just as well get a .45 and a set of dies.

EMF, Cimmaron, USFA, and probably some others have .44 Special Colt clones.

Marlin .44 magnum rifles are pretty available, might shoot .44 special ok, might take some tweaking.

The Stoeger double shotgun is about the cheapest thing you see in any numbers at CAS.

Re the girlfriend. She would probably be better off with a 12 gauge shotgun and the Winchester Low Noise, Low Recoil loads, commonly known as the Featherlight. It should be HER gun with the stock cut to fit her - it should be shorter and the angle of the buttplate/recoil pad should take the female anatomy into consideration.

[azredhawk44]

Hi Jim, thanks for the info.

Maybe I will go the 45LC route... But I really would prefer a Remington 1858 pattern converted for cartridges. I remember something about an 1875 model. Does that have a loading gate? I don't want to have to yank the cylinder to reload an 1858 conversion.

So, redefined goals: Remington pattern with general appearance of 1858 cap and ball Remington, ala 1875 (I think) design. Chambered in 45LC. I will give the new Taurus pump action cowboy rifle a try, also in 45LC. Either that, or my grandpa has an old rifle in 45, not sure if it's 45LC, .454, .45/70, or whatever. Might see if I can talk him out of that, if it's 45LC And a shotgun. I'll look into the Stoeger.

In the meantime, I happened upon a deal on a .36 cap and ball Pietta 1851 Navy steel frame, 7 1/2 inch. I've been wanting a cap and ball gun for a while anyways, so I bought it. Can this be used too? If not, no big deal.

[Jim Watson]

You can get the Kirst Konverter for a '58 Remington C&B with loading gate and extractor.
http://www.kirstkonverter.com/ported.html
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4776.htm
The loading chute leading up to the gate must be cut in the frame.
They are kind of non-cheap, you could probably round up a '75 repro for the price of a '58 + Kirst.

Suggest you go to the SASS Wire and read about the fun of Beta testing a new gun like the Taurus pump before you get all enthused over being the first on your block with one.
http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showforum=12

You can use a cap & ball revolver but their management is kind of tedious and I do not think it a good idea for the beginner wanting to get in cheap.

[azredhawk44]

I was looking at the Kirst Konverter and saw they had one for the '51 Navy for 38LongColt. Isn't that Clint Eastwood's gun from The Good, The Bad and The Ugly? And Cort's gun in The Quick and The Dead?

That might be a cool little doo-dad for my '51 Navy at some point... but I will probably go with EMF's 1875 Remington in 45LC.

[Father Knows Best]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

EMF has Eyetalian Remingtons in .44-40 but that does not really have enough in common with .44 special or magnum to matter; just as well get a .45 and a set of dies.

I disagree. First of all, let me correct some inaccuracies up above. While the 44-40 cartridge USED to use a .427 bullet, and 44-40 firearms USED to have .426 barrels, most modern 44-40 firearms have .429 barrels. That's the same size as the .44 special family (.44 Russian, .44 Special, .44 Remington Magnum). In other words, the vast majority of modern "44-40" firearms actually have barrels sized for .44 special/mag. This practice began in the 1970s. It makes it possible to offer "dual cylinder" revolvers, for instance, chambered in both 44-40 and 44 special or magnum. Ruger has offered such revolvers, as well as Colt and others. ALL Ruger 44-40 revolvers actually have .429 barrels. The same appears to be true of Ubertis made in the last few decades. Hartford Armory uses .429 barrels, too. The only modern makers that I know still use .426 barrels on their 44-40 guns are USFA and Colt, and then only on single-cylinder guns. Both will still use .429 barrels on dual cylinder revolvers.

I have owned six Uberti 44-40 single action revolvers, and three Uberti 44-40 rifles, in the last few years. I slugged all of them, and they all were .429. All six revolvers were 1875 Remington replicas. Two were imported by Navy Arms (marked "1875 Army"), two by EMF (marked "1875 Outlaw"), one by Uberti USA and one by American Arms. All three rifles (an 1860 "Henry", and 1866 "Yellowboy" and an 1873) had .429 barrels. I have it on good authority that Marlin used .429 barrels when it built some 44-40 model 1894 rifles recently.

Factory 44-40 ammo still uses .426-.427 bullets, but that's because so many older guns with the .426 barrels are still out there. If you're loading your own, however, you should be using .429 or .430 bullets -- the same size as .44 special and magnum.

The 44-40 is an excellent CAS cartridge, especially if you intend to shoot black powder. It has roughly the same case capacity as the .45 Colt, but uses a slightly smaller and lighter bullet (typically .429 200 grains vs. .454 250 grains), so you get better ballistics and less recoil. The thin case, with its slight taper and bottleneck, obturates and seals the chamber much better than any of the straight-walled revolver cases like .45 Colt or .44 Special. The result is a lot less blowback and fouling in the action, so your rifle stays a lot cleaner.

The 44-40 cartridge has one drawback, which is that it can be a bit trickier to reload than the straight walled cases. In my experience, though, that just means taking a little more time in setting up your dies.

I actually have two 1875 Remington replicas chambered in .44 special, but they started life as .44-40's (the aforementioned Navy Arms guns). I love 44-40 for my rifles, but eventually decided that the case was too large for use in CAS competition handguns. They generate too much smoke and recoil to be competitive. Downloading with black powder is tricky because you can't leave airspace, and I tired of dealing with wads and fillers. The solution was to buy a pair of .357 cylinders for my 44-40 Remingtons, and have them rechambered in .44 special and fitted to the guns. Steve Young (aka "Nate Kiowa Jones") did the work for me. I actually shoot .44 Russian cartridges out of them, loaded with the exact same bullet (a "big lube" 205 grain cast bullet sized to .430) I use in the 44-40 cartridges that I load for my rifles.

[Jbar4Ranch]

IMO, .44 caliber is a much better caliber than .45 for CAS. Case capacity is smaller so modern smokeless powders can be more efficiently utilized in reduced loads, and lighter bullets tend to work better than light .45 bullets. I tried .38, .357. .44-40, and .45 Colt before settling on the .44-40. A lot of plates and other knock downs often don't go down with .38 loads, but I've never had it happen with 200-215 grain .44-40 bullets. My .44-40 stable consists of two Uberti 1873 rifles, three Ruger Vaqueros, a pair of Uberti Schofields, and a pair of Uberti 1875 Remingtons. All but one of the 1875's slugs .429", with the remaining 1875 coming in at about .432" for some reason.

[Hafoc]

Azredhawk44-

Remington made both an 1875 and 1890 single action. There are replicas out there, although I don't know who makes them. They do have loading gates and were made new as cartridge guns.

The chief difference between the two is cosmetic; I think they're mechanically identical. In real life, Remington's 1875 didn't sell as well as the Colt SAA, and the 1890 sold even less.

I've never handled one. I've read reports that said they handled and balanced much better than the Colts, and I've heard the opposite. They ain't bad looking, that much I know.

HTH.

[Mark Milton]

There used to be a guy who wrote extensively about SA guns for the annual magazines about 20 years ago. His name was Jim something or other and he was a straight shooter.
He pointed out that the 1875 Remington clones by Uberti were very good and accurate guns (often more accurate than the Colt clones) but tended to have problems in .45 Colt caliber with some rounds as the cylinder was a mite short for the cartridge, and that the guns were a bit better in .44-40 and .357 calibers....
Personally, I think the 1890 Remington with it's short barrel in nickel finish is the handsomest handgun of all times, m'self.......

[Gunfixr]

To answer your question simply, yes, you can use .44 spl./ .44mag. provided they are loade with lead bullets and do not exceed the speed limits of SASS. This would be 1000fps in pistol and 1200 fps in rifle. You cannot use rifle caliber longarms for main match competition. Both Marlin and Rossi (under the name Puma) make leverguns in .44 mag. Whether or not they smoothly cylce .44spl. is trial and error. If not, it can be corrected. You won't find Italian made replicas in .44 mag., only maybe .44spl because the Colt size frame cannot handle .44 mag. If you convert a .36 percussion to .38 spl, either you must reline the bore or use special hollow base bullets. This is because .36 cal has a bore of .375 and .38 spl has a bore of .356. The bullets would be slaloming down the bore. Unless the rules have changed, shotguns smaller than 20 guage are not allowed. You can have a recoil pad, however, and an internal recoil reducer can be installed in the stock.

[YosemiteSam357]

Don't mean to hijack your thread, just very similar questions:

Do my two revolvers have to be the same caliber? Eg, can I use one .357/.38 and one .45 LC? I assume this means I would have to shoot in the "high power" (or whatever it's called) class.

The response above answers my long-standing question about my Marlin .30-30 lever gun. Damn, guess I shouldn't have sold that .357 Winchester after all.

Thanks in advance for any answers. I'm not sure I'm ever going to actually jump in and try CAS, but I do like the hardware. And the costuming/"soft" angle may be just what's needed to get "da better half" interested in some firearms-related activity. She'd love to run a chuck wagon.

-- Sam

[Jbar4Ranch]

Nope. For that matter, nothing prohibits you from having three different calibers for yer rifle & pistols, or even mixing centerfire & percussion revolvers if ya want.

[Molasses]

An observation: there was a 14 month break in this thread up until a few days ago...maybe the original poster hasn't already made a decision by now?

However,

Do my two revolvers have to be the same caliber? Eg, can I use one .357/.38 and one .45 LC? I assume this means I would have to shoot in the "high power" (or whatever it's called) class.

Two revolvers in different calibers wouldn't be a problem at all. Just don't get your ammo mixed up. Been there, done that. Discovered that .44-40s shot out of a .45 end up with sort of a reverse bottleneck. I've also discovered that .44-40s won't fit in a Vaquero chambered for .40 S&W.

About the only issue that I can think of would be that mixing fixed sight and adjustable sight or C&B and cartridge pistolas might limit you to competing in the category of the "more competitive" of the two.

[Old Dragoon]

Glad I'm not alone in mixing cartridges.
I did it with 44 Mag and 45LC, standing jawing with my Nephew and loading a cylinder with both boxes of ammo open in front of me and not realilizing every other cartridge was a 44 mag. The 45lc's were Blazer ammo and the 44 Mags were my handloaded ones. By the time I realized(after emptying the cylinder at the target and cussing that darned Blazer Ammo) by looking at the cylinder and discovering TWO colors of BRASS(one was Aluminum) I about had a heart attack.
I knew exactly what I had done and it wasn't that darned Blazer Ammo like I was blaming. It was Rabbit Earred Jabber Jaws old Me...still in one piece and so was the Cimarron 45LC clone...though I had to use a screw driver to get the 44 mag split cases out of the gun. I sent it back to Cimarron to check it out and their gunsmith sent it back and said it was "in Spec and not hurt", Scared the bejeebers out of me when it dawned on me what I had done.

Bottom line, if I'm shooting two calibers now, one stays closed and in the shooting box until the gun comes out and never have them both out at the same time. God protects fools and children and I fear I have been both more often than I care to recollect.

[Gunfixr]

You can mix calibers all you want, as long as all main match guns are pistol calibers. If you mix sights on your revolvers, ie, one has adjustable sights and the other fixed, you must compete in the Modern category.