Shotgun Instruction

[BigJimP]

But I had more fun than most .....

You are a little older than I am ....thank you ....I knew there was someone out there ... ...besides Zippy13 of course ....

On all the clay target games - you never need to have more than 1 shell in the mag - so you have plenty of room for weight .../but ideally you want the gun to fit, and swing the same, in the field too. So coming up with something that works for both is a good idea.

Keep the faith ....it will all work out.

Short story - but in 1998 or so, Browning introduced the 525 series Ciroi O/U - factory engraved, great looking gun. I decided I had to have one ....but I didn't know much about gun fit. I paid about $ 2,000 for the gun - one of the first ones on west coast / and it beat the daylights out of me. By station 3 on a sporting course - I would have a face bruise, then bloody cheek ....and I'd finish the round .....big shoulder bruise all the time - let my face heal - pick the scab off ....and do it again in about 2 weeks. I finally fixed it with a stick on comb pad - raising the comb and making it almost parallel to the rib - and adding some to length of pull. I understand not quitting ... But Shotguns just don't come in one size fits all... I have since moved on to other models of the Citori, that fit me a lot better ....no face slap, no bruised shoulders.. Get around some "Skeet" shooters - they seem to really understand this "Gun Fit" issue....

[TheKlawMan]

BigJimP,

Got back from WalMart and it doesn't look as though I am going to get the low recoil stuff I should be starting with there.

If I take the 870 in the field, it will be set up completely different than it now. At a minimum, it will have something like a vent rib 28" barrel. I may not need the added weights for clay shooting with such a barrel, only with the current home defense barrel.

I will give it a month but then I may consider another gone for the range and keeping the 870 as is for HD. That or getting the second barrel. First I want to get the basics down.

[oneounceload]

Try a place like here:
http://www.gamaliel.com/cart/product...cat=743&page=1

http://www.gamaliel.com/cart/product...cat=743&page=1

[TheKlawMan]

oneounceload; I may order from that outfit. Truth be told I am tight with a buck, but in this case it may be worth it to pay theh price to get the ligher loads. First, I think I will follow your advice on adding some weight to the gun and am going to try to pick up a few boxes locally to see how I do with that in the heavier gun. That and I just sent an email requesting info on setting up a lesson.

[BigJimP]

Since you're really getting into this stuff ....look at the MEC line of reloaders too ....

http://www.mecreloaders.com/

Many of us have been reloading shotshells for a long time / primarily because we want a specific velocity with a certain pellet size ....for a specific gague. The MEC Grabber model - is a simple Progressive machine / that manually indexes ...and is a very solid machine. Even though I've gone on to some of their hydraulic machines ....I still have one Mec Grabber in 12ga and one in 20ga that I'm going to pass down to one of the kids pretty soon - that I bought in the 70's ...

Reloading shotshells will also save you a few bucks per box / because you can load a premium quality shell - way less than premium ammo - and still cheaper than the promotional ammo too. But mostly get exactly what you want...my primary 12ga load is 1 oz of 8's at 1225 fps .... but for some of the grandkids I can back that load clear down to 1150 fps ...with just a 10 second bushing change. In 20ga I can load them up to 1oz, down to 7/8 oz ...or even down to 3/4oz like a 28ga load ....

My cost, using current component prices, is $ 3.67 a box for my 12ga loads ...and that's a pretty good savings ....and it adds another factor to the hobby....

[TheKlawMan]

BigJim. I have mused about reloading but am not going to get into that, yet, although I can see its benefits. Not just the direct cost benefit saved if you shoot a lot of rounds, and the ability to customize shot to your needs, but the satisfaction some have expressed from loading.

Still, we have to bear the cost of appropriate equipment in mind; large screen high definition TV for the garage and a frig for necessary refreshments.

I noticed a picture of your table saw and outfeed table on another thread, where you had some of your SGs displayed on it. I also have orders from family members backed up for basic book shelves and things to make on my somewhat new Home Depot granite top. It is probably rather crude compared to what you use but I love it. That is getting a bit off topic for this forum.

[TheKlawMan]

I popped the pad of the stock, which was super easy onece I figured out the screw werre Phillips heads. So exactly what is the proper way to add the weighted shot hulls to the stock? I doubt that I just toss them in the hollow cavity or do I?

As long as I had the pad off I tried mounting the gun and it seemed to fit MUCH better the very first time I threw it up. With the pad it was nearly impossible not to see way to much barrel and now the top of the receiver and the bead is what I see and without scrunching up my neck.

Before shortening anything I will get a pro to check the fit and then consider if it should be cut a tad more to allow for a thicker pad and thicker clothing (tested with a thin shirt).

BigJimP suggested reloading and having looked at the low end machine he suppoed a link for it may be possible not to far down the road. (My wife got her new car.)

For the time being I am going to check out a place called Bas Pro, which has been described like a Disneyland or cornucopia of outdoor supplies. I am pumped.

[BigJimP]

For the weight inside the stock / figure out where you want it - how deep in the cavity you want it ... and use a dowel rod / an old towel ...or whatever to take up the space in front and in back of it....so it doesn't slide back and forth - and stays precisely at the point you want it. You can tape the spent hulls together or whatever works / doesn't have to be fancy...just so it doesn't move.

ReCobs Target shop is where I buy my loaders and wads in case quantities....and they're good people.

http://www.recobstargetshop.com/index.htm

They have new Grabber models for about $ 370 ....but there are a lot of good used machines around too ...my local gun show always has some. There are cheaper models too ....but I like the capability of the Grabber ...its the low end of the Progressive machines ....but has a good resizer, etc ...and It'll give you a good 5 - 6 boxes an hour with no problem.

Bass Pro, Cabelas, etc are all fun shops to visit ...have a good time ...

[oneounceload]

Bass Pro, like Cabela's is a great place to look and touch - but their pricing is a little higher than you can get elsewhere.

As to the leaded hulls - see which one will fit - depending on the bored hole size, usually a 12, but possibly a 20 gauge might be necessary.

If you can't get the crimped ends shut properly, you might ask at your local gun club and see if someone can make you a few of them.

For reloading equipment, once you've figured what hardware you want, look on your local Craig's List, the gun club bulletin board, even Ebay - buying a used press is a lot cheaper than new.

From your description of you not having to "scrunch" down, and the barrel is aligning itself so you do not see barrel or rib, you might be getting close to a good fit. Pick the corner in a room where the ceiling and walls meet, close your eyes, mount the gun, open your eyes - if you are pointing and looking where you were when you closed your eyes, you're pretty close - the proof will be shooting targets

[TheKlawMan]

Well drooling at Bass Pro is out as I now have to meet my son in about an hour, but I went out and picked up mini-Mag flashlight for pointing drills.

I don't understand what oneonunce is saying about the bore size in relation to placing some leaded hulls in the stock. Are you talking about the hole that would be bored in a solid stock to accept the long screw and washer used to fix it to the receiver? Mine is a hollow synthetic stock.

What BigJim is saying about using a towel or what it takes makes sense. One thought I have is to use plastic clamps available at any big box home hardware designed for fastening copper or PVC pipe to house studs. Instead of secriwing them to the inside of the stock, fasten them with a semi-permanent adhesive/glue.

[oneounceload]

I don't understand what oneonunce is saying about the bore size in relation to placing some leaded hulls in the stock. Are you talking about the hole that would be bored in a solid stock to accept the long screw and washer used to fix it to the receiver? Mine is a hollow synthetic stock.

Yep, this old man was thinking wood stock and the hole.............

Added: - swapping out the plastic for wood would easily add some recoil-absorbing weight as well

[TheKlawMan]

That's okay oneounce. Given all the people you are helping with different makes and models I would think it would be easily to confuse. And I have thought about a wood stock, but if I do that this one will be kept as is for HD and I may look around for an old fasioned wood stocked/blued shooter. What people say about the wingmasters intrigues me but I guess they are all 2-3/4 inches. Now that I have something I can take my time and see if a good opportunity arises to get something used. (The guy I was shooting with the other day was shooting a 58 year old something that was gorgeous. He shot my little 870 twise on the trap range and nailed them both, not a wing but blasted them.)

Ans as for your help and the help of everyone, I am tickled.

RE the length of the stock, I replaced the pad and once again I was seeing an awful lot of barrel.

[BigJimP]

I was thinking wood stock too ....( assumptions..:barf ....so OneOunce and I were both envisioning a hole in the stock about 1" in diameter. My Benelli semi-auto has a carbon fibre stock as well / but it was pretty easy to fill the void with the weight wrapped and taped inside a bar towel.

When you say you're seeing a lot of barrel when you mount the gun - that's partly affected by the angle of the comb as well ...so there are a lot of factors working here - to get this gun to fit you right / so it quits beating you up.

The goal is no shoulder pain - even if you shoot 10 - 12 boxes a day...(which many of us do / especially in big 4 day tournaments ). If the gun fits - how many boxes you shoot will not be a factor .....mental fatigue / from watching that many targets ...will be the biggest reason you'll be tired at the end of your day - or at least that should be your goal in my opinion.

[TheKlawMan]

BigJim. There is lot I am going to have to do to shoot well. I didn't even mention that I wear varifocal glasses and suspect I need a pair designed specifically for shooting. As it is, I am looking over the top of the lenses.

[BigJimP]

Yes, I wear progressive bi-foculs too ....and they don't work for shooting ...and I even have an extra prism in mine --- because of some eye muscle laziness ... that blurrs my vision in my dominant eye ...off and on ...( makes shooting flying targets a little more challenging ...when there at big fuzzy clouds of 6 of them out there ...)... but what the heck, if it wasn't fun, I'd have another hobby...

Talk to Decot Hywyd.... they'll tell you what you need.../ they've made my shooting glasses for several years !! They aren't cheap / but its a good product - and they're good to work with ....

http://www.sportglasses.com

OneOunce and I are just into your checkbook clear to our necks aren't we ....we're sorry ...well, a little bit anyway .... I have to have separate lenses made for my handgunning too ....so I can see my front sight clear on my handguns ....

getting old, isn't for lightweights ....

[oneounceload]

KM - My wife wears a progressive lens.....she winds up looking through the top where her distance section is...........it isn't the best, but she is making it work at the time

[Couzin]

I don't know if it was buried in the thread or not - but that 870 is going to shoot flat - most trap guns shoot a little high or the shooter makes allowances like adding comb height, covering or passing the bird, etc. Check your pattern and see if you need to adjust your POA. Also - the choke will make a difference (IMHO). Lastly - as you have discovered, your gun fit needs fixing. If it is hurting you - you will be anticipating getting smacked instead of finding your target and correct lead.

[TheKlawMan]

I am doing so bad at this point, little things like blurry vision and shooting flat are meaningless. As for scores, and who is counting, I shot 7/25 twice the other day WITH NO choke.

It's a cyllinder bore and it isn't threaded for chokes and my guess if I don't shoot real quick the shot will spread so fast the chances of hitting the bird are rather slim, even if I had a clue what I was doing.

Right now I am just trying to get fundamentals down and then will worry about scores; the big fundamental being avoiding breaking my shoulder. I have a feeling much will fall in place with a few modifications to the stock; especially shortening the LOP. Along with that and some basic instruction I don't expect to become a Top Gun but I think I will do a bit better than 7. If I like this thing as much as I think I will, I may not want to sink much moolah into it but put something into a second hand sporter.

I have an idea what you mean by covering the bird and all as one guy explained that I am shooting so late that the clay is falling. As is, I keep trying to aim the dadburn thing rather than point and squeeze.

Anyway, removing the pad and checking the fit has made me feel much better about the gun. Thanks.

[Dave McC]

A couple things....


First, kudos to the regulars,especially Jim, Zip and 1 oz, who are taking the time to help out a newbie.

Well done!

Next.....

Klawman, when I started seriously shooting trap back around 2000, I used a wonderful 870 TB trap gun. With the controls and "Chops" identical to my defensive and hunting tools, practice with it was practice with the others.

And if you're seeing all the rib, or top line when mounting, my guess is you're not getting a good cheek weld. Make sure you get consistent and firm contact.

I wish you lived in MD. Betcha I could fix this up in 30 minutes at the range......

[TheKlawMan]

Dave McC; You folk definitely deserve kudos and have all been great and I have no doubt you could spot what is going on right quick.

Anyway, absolutely no cheek slap and there is no rib. This is just an 18" cyllinder bore defense barrel with bead. I have sarted looking into a used ribbed barrel

I have sent an e-mail to a local "certified" NSCA instructor to see about lessons, but have yet to hear back, and am trying to find out about group beginner skeet classes.

Meanwhile I may run into a shooter that will spot things or one with a short LOP gun I can try. I think it may be too early for me to shoot, but I am going out to the range and just watch what others are doing. Just in case I may grab a box of the low recoil stuff oneounce has suggested.

I also noted that the worse bruising is from the more pointed lower part of the standard Remington butt pad (the "toe"?). I have read where one guy being dug with the point was told to round it off, but before I do that I want to see if the proper cure is something else.

Thanks Dave.

[zippy13]

Originally Posted by BigJimP

You are a little older than I am ....thank you ....I knew there was someone out there ... ...besides Zippy13 of course …

Yep, I'm even a pinch older than Dave McC, our esteemed moderator. My first round of Skeet was about 47 years ago. Having be brought up in a home without guns, my only training had been rifle and pistol in the military, I was on my own with a shotgun. I spent many years as a practitioner of trail and error shotgunning, even won a few shoots. Perfecting my errors, I had reached a ceiling and stagnated for many years. It wasn't until I was able until to buddy-up with an All-American shooter, who identified my errors, that I was able re-learn and started making progress, again.

TheKlawMan,
At our age, you don't have twenty years of trail and error to waste, before you get serious. You have one advantage over the young new shooters: you know that you don't know, and want to do something about it. We've all seen brash young men who think high testosterone levels will instinctively make shooters out of them -- I was one of them back in the day.

My neighbor (older than me) got his first shotgun last year after some dogs savaged his livestock. I took him to my gun club for an introductory lesson. Two fields from us there is a manual trap set up for casual practice, and two young men were launching targets for each other. One was a novice and the other a first-timer. A typical case of the blind leading the blind -- ripe with enthusiasm and short on experience. As we watched them, I'd say too my neighbor, "Watch, he'll miss the this one." After the guy missed, my neighbor asked how I'd known. The guy's mount had been so awkward, there was no way he was going to get shot anywhere near the target. They were great examples of how not to mount a shotgun.

You are wise to be seeking some basic instruction, you don't want to be like the awkward young men shooting holes in the sky. An advantage to your age is the old boys at the gun clubs will take you seriously when you ask for help. As clayman mentioned, the NSSA/NSCA has an instructor certification program. In Orange County, Roger Blickham [(949) 498-8736], of San Clemente, is listed. I met Roger some years ago when he and his son competed at the SoCal clubs. In his younger days he was a Class-AA Skeet shooter and no-nonsense kind of guy.

Something that's often overlooked: In addition to schooling in the fundamentals, try to shoot with folks who are better shooters and watch and learn. Big Jim's shooting buddy is an older more experienced shooter. I'm sure, even with Jim's vast experience, he still picks-up a nugget every now and them. Unfortunately there's a dark side to shotgunning: we've all seen the show-off novice trying to impress the less experienced with well-meaning but worthless suggestions.

When it comes to seeing over the top of your glasses, you aren't alone. The Decots Big Jim mentioned are known as Hy-Wyd -- as the name implies the Hy is for high. I've been wearing the same Hy-Wyd frames for over twenty years. When my prescription changes I get new Decot lenses, and send the frames in for refurbishing (free, IIRC).

[oneounceload]

A big plus to Zippy's comments - trial and error doesn't begin to describe how I learned about guns either. One thing I have found as I shoot sporting - I tend to shoot to the level of the folks I am shooting with. One group has scores about like mine and another is a group of AA/M class shooters, including one in the NSCA Hall of Fame - when I shoot with those guys, I must be intuitively picking up some pointers, because my scores are always higher - they can also diagnose a problem I am having or give me hints on how to tackle a certain target......

[TheKlawMan]

Sounds good, guys. Yes, I learned by now the benefit of learning and listening. And today was a good day. I watched others shoot for a couple of hours and shot a round. (My shoulder felt pretty good but I was prepared to walk off the range if it bothered me.

NO PAIN! Of course I paid great care to mounting the butt inboard of where I was improperly resting it before, as well as a few other fundamentals AND I BOUGHT A BOX OF WINCHESTER LOW RECOIL 26 GRAM AA 980 FPS as suggested. The price at Turners was about the same as online if you include shipping.

I didn't hit worth beans but that wasn't my goal, which was to mount the same everytime in the proper part of the shoulder. I am still going to add weight (and look for a deal on a long barrel), but will try a standard 1 oz target load in a few days.

[oneounceload]

AWESOME! Glad to hear you had no pain

[TheKlawMan]

Zippy, I wasn't shooting formal skeet and wasn't even on a range but I was shooting clays thrown by my Dad 50 years ago off the road on somebody's land between Newport Beach and Corona. I think it was what is now Tustin.

I was looking at Blickham, but I believe San Clemente is in San Diego County south of Oceanside and I am up by what was the El Toro Marine Corp Air Station. There was an old guy at Prado today and I think he may have been an instructor. He sure could shoot. I may ask about him.

Meanwhile, I will e-mail Blickham. I am probably only going to want to take a class or two and he is probably worth an extra hour or two of driving. Besides, I have been thinking of setting up some kind of pro bono office hours for the guys at Pendleton and need to talk to someone.

[Doh! Me stupid. San Clemente isn't much past Dana Point. The little light went on whan I noticed that we have the same area code.)