Cylinder rubs on frame when open

Cossack · February 27, 2015, 07:01 PM

I took a chance on buying a S&W 681 on gunbroker and ended up getting one with a few issues. It's uncommon, so I was willing to take a bit of a chance, considering the price was decent. Anyway, I figured that these L-Frames were pretty indestructible...

I think this gun was someone's magnum workhorse. It has noticeable, but not alarming, flame cutting on the topstrap. There's a bit of endshake.

One of the most bothering problems is that the cylinder rubs on the frame right above the trigger. There's a bit of a wear mark on the frame and another on the cylinder, and you can even feel it drag a bit.

Is there anything to be done about this? I was already thinking of getting some endshake bearings - might they also help with the drag problem by holding the cylinder more firmly?

How bad a problem is this, other than cosmetic? The revolver functions fine and shoots well.

Sgt127 · February 27, 2015, 07:53 PM

With the cylinder open or closed? Neither is good. Possibly a spring yoke. Not that hard to fix with the right tools and skillset. But, not normal at all.

Another though I just realized, if its only on one spot in the cylinder, the chamber is potentially bulged. Not fixable, replace cylinder.

Cossack · February 27, 2015, 08:00 PM

It when the cylinder is swung open - the rear of the cylinder rubs the left side of the frame right above the trigger.

When closed it appears ok, but when swung out it seem the yoke is holding the cylinder at an angle. The more I look at it, it seems the the yoke is loose, although it may be somehow bent as well. The cylinder just drops open, much more loosely than any of my other S&Ws do.

James K · February 27, 2015, 08:40 PM

"I figured that these L-Frames were pretty indestructible..."

You figured wrong. The L-frame is pretty tough, but no gun is indestructible if shot a lot or shot with extreme loads. It sounds like yours might have seen both conditions. Your choices are to live with the problems and hope they don't get worst; call S&W and see what they say about giving the gun a checkout; contact a local pistolsmith if you can find one and get an idea what is wrong.

A buy that seems like a real bargain probably isn't.

Jim

RIDE-RED 350r · February 27, 2015, 08:48 PM

I have older Smiths and Smiths I bought new. On all, the cylinder can rub lightly on the frame when swung all the way open and the revolver pointed muzzle-up.

Normal.

See, when you swing the cylinder open, the only thing keeping the cylinder on the yoke is that little raised area you noticed it rubbing on the frame. Without that raised rib, the cylinder could slide off the yoke when fully open....

But might be worth having your yoke and frame checked for damage due to "hollywood style" cylinder closing.....

Measure your endshake properly with feeler gauges. You cannot just go by feel.

S&W told me via email that endshake is considered out of spec at .006". My 460 had .005" and S&W had me send it in for a free tune-up as he said it was too close to out of spec, especially considering the caliber. 460 is now at a nice .003"

I have encountered endshake as tight as a tight .002" and as wide as .005".

Cossack · February 27, 2015, 09:15 PM

I should have known something was up from this photo. You can see the rub spot.

I suspect the bigger problem is swinging the cylinder closed rather than the magnum diet. There are also scratches that indicate a few rounds were hanging out aft of the cylinder when it was swung shut.

James K · February 27, 2015, 09:16 PM

The cylinder will normally rub on the frame lug; it is what keeps the cylinder from coming back off the yoke and falling on the ground. But the OP says his cylinder is rubbing on the frame at the mid point of the cylinder, and that is NOT normal.

Jim

texagun · February 28, 2015, 09:27 AM

Sometimes a "bargain" turns out to be not such a bargain. If it was my gun I would bite the bullet and send it in to S&W for a full checkup and tuneup to make it right. The 581's are excellent and rugged guns but abuse can certainly damage and loosen them up. When you get it back it should run like a new gun with many years of use left in it.

tallball · February 28, 2015, 09:43 AM

It's the luck of the draw. Most of my firearm bargains really were bargains.

RIDE-RED 350r · February 28, 2015, 09:49 AM

Well, that photo does change the game a bit, doesn't it.

There should not be wear marks there. Don't mean to parrot a previously posted reply after the pic was posted. Just don't want people to think I am an idiot. Going by his description of the problem, I was thinking he was asking about rubbing on the lug...

You are right James K, the cylinder should only contact the frame lug..

Cossack: If you swing the cylinder open, keep the barrel level and spin the cylinder, does it wobble??

Either case, it would be worthwhile to get it to a smitty for some diagnosis.

RKG · February 28, 2015, 10:12 AM

JamesK is correct; that situation is not normal. Most likely the yoke is bent. This is repairable, but it is not a DIY project.

tangolima · February 28, 2015, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIDE-RED 350r

S&W told me via email that endshake is considered out of spec at .006". My 460 had .005" and S&W had me send it in for a free tune-up as he said it was too close to out of spec, especially considering the caliber. 460 is now at a nice .003"

I have encountered endshake as tight as a tight .002" and as wide as .005".

0.006" is way too much for endshake, especially for magnum. I go by 0 to 0.002".

-TL

RIDE-RED 350r · February 28, 2015, 10:58 AM

Just going by what S&W rep told me.

And they did tighten it up.

I agree though, tighter the better.

tangolima · February 28, 2015, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RKG

JamesK is correct; that situation is not normal. Most likely the yoke is bent. This is repairable, but it is not a DIY project.

It probably needs a cylinder refit. More every gunsmithing knows how to do it nowadays. Sending back to s&w is an option I would consider.

-TL

tangolima · February 28, 2015, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIDE-RED 350r

Just going by what S&W rep told me.

And they did tighten it up.

I agree though, tighter the better.

Sure. I think they need to maintain a balance for their operations. Tight spec is good for your revolver, but not good for their bottomline.

Off topic here. With enough endshake and potent rounds, a DA revolver could go full auto.

-TL

Sgt127 · February 28, 2015, 01:09 PM

Is there one wear spot in the cylinder or, all the way around?

James K · February 28, 2015, 02:17 PM

I think I may see a problem. The cylinder notches appear to have been peened up, a sign of considerable rapid firing. That raised metal appears to be what is hitting the frame, not the body of the cylinder. I would use a small hammer and tap that metal back in place and see if that corrects the rubbing problem.

Jim

Cossack · February 28, 2015, 04:28 PM

The wear is all around the cylinder, so it's not a bulged cylinder. there is peening, but it's pretty mild. I think the problem is the bent crane/yoke, because the cylinder actually slants in toward the frame when open.

I think my options are to send it away to S&W or C&S, to buy another crane/yoke, or to get one of these tools:
http://ads.midwayusa.com/product/594...-w-k-l-n-frame

Others seem to have had success with them.

Sgt127 · February 28, 2015, 07:10 PM

Good eye Jamesk. That's an excellent idea.

Fitting a new yoke is tough. Always try and salvage what you can. The repair basically uses wooden wedges and a lead Babbitt to beat the parts into alignment using the alignment rod.

If you don't have alot into the gun and, are handy with tools, heck, you might try getting everything back aligned.

It feels good to fix things.

IraIII · March 1, 2015, 08:45 AM

Make sure that the correct screw is in the front position on the sideplate, the end of the screw is what adjusts the crane tension. It makes a difference in which dash number your 681 is the 681, 681-1, 681-2 use the earlier screw, and the 681-3 uses the spring loaded screw in the front position on the sideplate. Also there was a recalll with the 681, and 681-1 which was not really needed in my mind, but S&W will still do the recall fix if needed on their dime including shipping, and they would address the other problems when the revolver was with them. If your 681 is a -2 or higher the recall has already been done, also if there is an M stamped above the model number the recall has been done already.

James K · March 2, 2015, 01:42 AM

I'm not sure I understand. The screw retains the crane but doesn't put any tension on it. The lower arbor is a snug fit in the frame and there should be no perceptible side movement or any end movement once the screw (either type) is in place. (Sometimes the new type screw will allow some forward movement, but in a properly fitted pistol that should not happen because the pointed plunger should not be able to move into the screw when the screw is tightened down.)

Jim

IraIII · March 2, 2015, 05:49 AM

That is correct, tension may not be the correct word, but the older style is fit to the groove in the crane, and the newer style uses the spring in the pointed end to accomplish the same thing. This may cause cylinder fitment problems, but probably not the rubbing which is evident on the op's revolver.

Cossack · March 5, 2015, 11:01 PM

This revolver has already been to the factory and has the "M" stamp. It's a no-dash model.

James K · March 5, 2015, 11:09 PM

If the cylinder is not in alignment, it could be a bent yoke, or it could be a bent frame. I would check it out very carefully before spending any more money on it. In fact, I see something odd about the top strap, almost like welding. Is it the result of flame cutting or is something else involved? I think that gun badly needs a checking out by someone who really knows what to look for and has the proper gauges.

Sorry if your deal turned out to be a lemon, but that is the price of buying things sight unseen.

Jim

Cossack · March 5, 2015, 11:41 PM

You know, I had initially thought that was from flame cutting, but upon closer inspection, it appears to have been banged or dropped there. The flame cutting is actually not bad at all. I had just assumed it was because of that little bump, which is close, but doesn't actually line up with the flame line. After a bit of cleaning and close inspection, the flame cutting is very minimal - almost imperceptible when dragging the fingernail over it.

there certainly doesn't appear to be any welding.

I'm starting to get the impression that most of the issues with this gun have to do with swinging it shut, and not with an overly aggressive magnum diet.

As I look back on the photos I should have known better than to get this, but I do think this one's salvageable. I'll have someone more knowledgeable (who has gauges!)look at it, and might well end up sending it back to S&W.

February 27, 2015, 07:01 PM	#1
Cossack Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2006 Posts: 260	Cylinder rubs on frame when open I took a chance on buying a S&W 681 on gunbroker and ended up getting one with a few issues. It's uncommon, so I was willing to take a bit of a chance, considering the price was decent. Anyway, I figured that these L-Frames were pretty indestructible... I think this gun was someone's magnum workhorse. It has noticeable, but not alarming, flame cutting on the topstrap. There's a bit of endshake. One of the most bothering problems is that the cylinder rubs on the frame right above the trigger. There's a bit of a wear mark on the frame and another on the cylinder, and you can even feel it drag a bit. Is there anything to be done about this? I was already thinking of getting some endshake bearings - might they also help with the drag problem by holding the cylinder more firmly? How bad a problem is this, other than cosmetic? The revolver functions fine and shoots well.

February 27, 2015, 07:53 PM	#2
Sgt127 Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2002 Posts: 1,053	With the cylinder open or closed? Neither is good. Possibly a spring yoke. Not that hard to fix with the right tools and skillset. But, not normal at all. Another though I just realized, if its only on one spot in the cylinder, the chamber is potentially bulged. Not fixable, replace cylinder.

February 27, 2015, 08:00 PM	#3
Cossack Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2006 Posts: 260	It when the cylinder is swung open - the rear of the cylinder rubs the left side of the frame right above the trigger. When closed it appears ok, but when swung out it seem the yoke is holding the cylinder at an angle. The more I look at it, it seems the the yoke is loose, although it may be somehow bent as well. The cylinder just drops open, much more loosely than any of my other S&Ws do.

February 27, 2015, 08:40 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	"I figured that these L-Frames were pretty indestructible..." You figured wrong. The L-frame is pretty tough, but no gun is indestructible if shot a lot or shot with extreme loads. It sounds like yours might have seen both conditions. Your choices are to live with the problems and hope they don't get worst; call S&W and see what they say about giving the gun a checkout; contact a local pistolsmith if you can find one and get an idea what is wrong. A buy that seems like a real bargain probably isn't. Jim

February 27, 2015, 08:48 PM	#5
RIDE-RED 350r Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2014 Posts: 425	I have older Smiths and Smiths I bought new. On all, the cylinder can rub lightly on the frame when swung all the way open and the revolver pointed muzzle-up. Normal. See, when you swing the cylinder open, the only thing keeping the cylinder on the yoke is that little raised area you noticed it rubbing on the frame. Without that raised rib, the cylinder could slide off the yoke when fully open.... But might be worth having your yoke and frame checked for damage due to "hollywood style" cylinder closing..... Measure your endshake properly with feeler gauges. You cannot just go by feel. S&W told me via email that endshake is considered out of spec at .006". My 460 had .005" and S&W had me send it in for a free tune-up as he said it was too close to out of spec, especially considering the caliber. 460 is now at a nice .003" I have encountered endshake as tight as a tight .002" and as wide as .005".

February 27, 2015, 09:15 PM	#6
Cossack Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2006 Posts: 260	I should have known something was up from this photo. You can see the rub spot. I suspect the bigger problem is swinging the cylinder closed rather than the magnum diet. There are also scratches that indicate a few rounds were hanging out aft of the cylinder when it was swung shut.

February 27, 2015, 09:16 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The cylinder will normally rub on the frame lug; it is what keeps the cylinder from coming back off the yoke and falling on the ground. But the OP says his cylinder is rubbing on the frame at the mid point of the cylinder, and that is NOT normal. Jim

February 28, 2015, 09:27 AM	#8
texagun Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 230	Sometimes a "bargain" turns out to be not such a bargain. If it was my gun I would bite the bullet and send it in to S&W for a full checkup and tuneup to make it right. The 581's are excellent and rugged guns but abuse can certainly damage and loosen them up. When you get it back it should run like a new gun with many years of use left in it.

February 28, 2015, 09:43 AM	#9
tallball Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2014 Posts: 2,444	It's the luck of the draw. Most of my firearm bargains really were bargains.

February 28, 2015, 09:49 AM	#10
RIDE-RED 350r Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2014 Posts: 425	Well, that photo does change the game a bit, doesn't it. There should not be wear marks there. Don't mean to parrot a previously posted reply after the pic was posted. Just don't want people to think I am an idiot. Going by his description of the problem, I was thinking he was asking about rubbing on the lug... You are right James K, the cylinder should only contact the frame lug.. Cossack: If you swing the cylinder open, keep the barrel level and spin the cylinder, does it wobble?? Either case, it would be worthwhile to get it to a smitty for some diagnosis.

February 28, 2015, 10:12 AM	#11
RKG Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2009 Location: Boston Posts: 562	JamesK is correct; that situation is not normal. Most likely the yoke is bent. This is repairable, but it is not a DIY project.

February 28, 2015, 10:58 AM	#13
RIDE-RED 350r Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2014 Posts: 425	Just going by what S&W rep told me. And they did tighten it up. I agree though, tighter the better.

February 28, 2015, 01:09 PM	#16
Sgt127 Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2002 Posts: 1,053	Is there one wear spot in the cylinder or, all the way around?

February 28, 2015, 02:17 PM	#17
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I think I may see a problem. The cylinder notches appear to have been peened up, a sign of considerable rapid firing. That raised metal appears to be what is hitting the frame, not the body of the cylinder. I would use a small hammer and tap that metal back in place and see if that corrects the rubbing problem. Jim

February 28, 2015, 04:28 PM	#18
Cossack Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2006 Posts: 260	The wear is all around the cylinder, so it's not a bulged cylinder. there is peening, but it's pretty mild. I think the problem is the bent crane/yoke, because the cylinder actually slants in toward the frame when open. I think my options are to send it away to S&W or C&S, to buy another crane/yoke, or to get one of these tools: http://ads.midwayusa.com/product/594...-w-k-l-n-frame Others seem to have had success with them.

February 28, 2015, 07:10 PM	#19
Sgt127 Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2002 Posts: 1,053	Good eye Jamesk. That's an excellent idea. Fitting a new yoke is tough. Always try and salvage what you can. The repair basically uses wooden wedges and a lead Babbitt to beat the parts into alignment using the alignment rod. If you don't have alot into the gun and, are handy with tools, heck, you might try getting everything back aligned. It feels good to fix things.

March 1, 2015, 08:45 AM	#20
IraIII Junior Member Join Date: February 21, 2009 Location: western N.Y. Posts: 7	Make sure that the correct screw is in the front position on the sideplate, the end of the screw is what adjusts the crane tension. It makes a difference in which dash number your 681 is the 681, 681-1, 681-2 use the earlier screw, and the 681-3 uses the spring loaded screw in the front position on the sideplate. Also there was a recalll with the 681, and 681-1 which was not really needed in my mind, but S&W will still do the recall fix if needed on their dime including shipping, and they would address the other problems when the revolver was with them. If your 681 is a -2 or higher the recall has already been done, also if there is an M stamped above the model number the recall has been done already.

March 2, 2015, 01:42 AM	#21
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I'm not sure I understand. The screw retains the crane but doesn't put any tension on it. The lower arbor is a snug fit in the frame and there should be no perceptible side movement or any end movement once the screw (either type) is in place. (Sometimes the new type screw will allow some forward movement, but in a properly fitted pistol that should not happen because the pointed plunger should not be able to move into the screw when the screw is tightened down.) Jim

March 2, 2015, 05:49 AM	#22
IraIII Junior Member Join Date: February 21, 2009 Location: western N.Y. Posts: 7	That is correct, tension may not be the correct word, but the older style is fit to the groove in the crane, and the newer style uses the spring in the pointed end to accomplish the same thing. This may cause cylinder fitment problems, but probably not the rubbing which is evident on the op's revolver.

March 5, 2015, 11:01 PM	#23
Cossack Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2006 Posts: 260	This revolver has already been to the factory and has the "M" stamp. It's a no-dash model.

March 5, 2015, 11:09 PM	#24
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	If the cylinder is not in alignment, it could be a bent yoke, or it could be a bent frame. I would check it out very carefully before spending any more money on it. In fact, I see something odd about the top strap, almost like welding. Is it the result of flame cutting or is something else involved? I think that gun badly needs a checking out by someone who really knows what to look for and has the proper gauges. Sorry if your deal turned out to be a lemon, but that is the price of buying things sight unseen. Jim

March 5, 2015, 11:41 PM	#25
Cossack Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2006 Posts: 260	You know, I had initially thought that was from flame cutting, but upon closer inspection, it appears to have been banged or dropped there. The flame cutting is actually not bad at all. I had just assumed it was because of that little bump, which is close, but doesn't actually line up with the flame line. After a bit of cleaning and close inspection, the flame cutting is very minimal - almost imperceptible when dragging the fingernail over it. there certainly doesn't appear to be any welding. I'm starting to get the impression that most of the issues with this gun have to do with swinging it shut, and not with an overly aggressive magnum diet. As I look back on the photos I should have known better than to get this, but I do think this one's salvageable. I'll have someone more knowledgeable (who has gauges!)look at it, and might well end up sending it back to S&W.