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Old November 28, 2013, 12:18 PM   #1
chickenmcnasty
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.58 muzzleloader questions

Hey all,

I'm considering a new muzzleloader purchase at some point in the next few months. I would like to go to a .54 or .58 for my "long range" deer rifle. Ideally I would like a gun that would get out to 200 yards if I do my job right with the iron sights, but i'm not sure which production muzzleloader would do that. I would like to stay with a sidelock, either percussion or flinter, and barrel length isn't much of an issue, and i'm not sure if I should go with a repro military rifle or something more like a Kentucky/hawken.
I guess with all this being said, which production muzzleloader has decent sights and would be accurate enough to achieve this goal? I am also torn between the twist rates in the barrel and which projectile would better achieve this. I would love to have a slow twist for round ball, but I'm sure a fast twist would be better for shooting a mini-ball more accurately. I like the thought of the larger .58 caliber, but I haven't eliminated the .54 as an option as i'm sure the trajectory is better.
Please chime in with your thoughts/opinions. I appreciate any insight you would get in this area. Thank you very much.
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Old November 28, 2013, 01:17 PM   #2
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Lyman Great Plains

Taking what you posted, at face value, I'd recommend the Lyman Great Plains or Great Plains Hunter, in .54. The Hunter has the faster twist. Next step up, would be the Pedersoli but they are a lot more expensive. .....

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Old November 28, 2013, 01:29 PM   #3
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If you are going traditional sidelock, I suggest the Lyman Great Plains 54 -- none better value-for-the-investment. Add to that the Lyman 57/GPR aperture sight and you have an iron-sighted rifle easily capable of sighting/hitting oranges at 150yds.

That said....

That 150 yards is the limit for (IMHO) responsible hunting -- both the iron sight and the roundball begin to run out precision/energy** at that point, and your ability to precisely judge range against bullet drop has reached low ebb.



**
A 0.07" blade front site spans 12" at 150 yards/and the 230gr ball has dropped from 1,600fps to 800 (still the same as pressing a 45 automatic against the deer's chest and pulling the trigger, however). Sighted dead on at 115yds, that combination has a ±5" point-blank trajectory from muzzle to 150.

Last edited by mehavey; November 28, 2013 at 01:35 PM.
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Old November 28, 2013, 01:42 PM   #4
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Welcome to the muzzle stuffers club! Be careful, you can't have just one

.54 vs .58. The difference between the two is negligible. If you want a flatter trajectory get a .45 or .50 cal.

Check your local laws. In my area you cannot hunt with round ball, you must use a bullet. That may determine what rifling twist you want. A 1 in 48 twist is a good compromise if you want to shoot ball and bullets, but if you want maximum range then I would choose my rifling based on which projectile you'll be using most.

I'd recommend using a "mini" if at all possible, they will have around 50% more retained energy at 200 yards than a round ball.

For long range rifle you'll want a long barrel. Black powder is a very slow burner so every inch counts. Try to find a barrel of 30 inches or longer. Don't be afraid of even a 42 inch barrel, the added sight radius helps immensely at those longer ranges.

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Old November 28, 2013, 03:07 PM   #5
chickenmcnasty
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.58 muzzleloader questions

Why the .54 over the .58?
Are the gpr's going to be as accurate as a military repro?
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Old November 28, 2013, 03:10 PM   #6
chickenmcnasty
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.58 muzzleloader questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomer58cal View Post
Welcome to the muzzle stuffers club! Be careful, you can't have just one

.54 vs .58. The difference between the two is negligible. If you want a flatter trajectory get a .45 or .50 cal.

Check your local laws. In my area you cannot hunt with round ball, you must use a bullet. That may determine what rifling twist you want. A 1 in 48 twist is a good compromise if you want to shoot ball and bullets, but if you want maximum range then I would choose my rifling based on which projectile you'll be using most.

I'd recommend using a "mini" if at all possible, they will have around 50% more retained energy at 200 yards than a round ball.

For long range rifle you'll want a long barrel. Black powder is a very slow burner so every inch counts. Try to find a barrel of 30 inches or longer. Don't be afraid of even a 42 inch barrel, the added sight radius helps immensely at those longer ranges.

Boomer
What is a good minie twist? Any particular recommendations as far as which rifle would be a great long distance shooter?
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Old November 28, 2013, 04:32 PM   #7
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Quote:
Why the .54 over the .58?
You will be trading the 54's significant velocity/trajectory advantage against the 58's mass.
At the far point of useful ranges, 54's ability to hit with the effect of a 45 auto is still more
than enough. That it needs no sight-guessing/changes from muzzle to 150 (for big game)
has been the deciding factor for me.
Quote:
Are the gpr's going to be as accurate as a military repro?


I dearly love my original `61 Springfield (Colt's Special Model), but it doesn't hold a candle to my GPR above.

Last edited by mehavey; November 28, 2013 at 04:43 PM.
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Old November 28, 2013, 04:52 PM   #8
chickenmcnasty
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.58 muzzleloader questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by mehavey View Post
You will be trading the 54's significant velocity/trajectory advantage against the 58's mass.
At the far point of useful ranges, 54's ability to hit with the effect of a 45 auto is still more
than enough. That it needs no sight-guessing/changes from muzzle to 150 (for big game)
has been the deciding factor for me.



I dearly love my original `61 Springfield (Colt's Special Model), but it doesn't hold a candle to my GPR above.
Great group, is that roundball or bullet? What yardage?
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Old November 28, 2013, 04:56 PM   #9
mehavey
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Sorry, thought the 50yd indicator was on the image. My bad.

Patched roundball/0.535" using strips of Hancock brand pillow-
ticking (0.019") lubed with 7:1 NAPA water-soluble cutting oil,
squeegeed dry
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Old November 28, 2013, 05:37 PM   #10
chickenmcnasty
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.58 muzzleloader questions

Very nice, what kind of groups is it capable of at longer yardages? I'm curious if they could all stay in deer vitals around the 150-200 yd mark.
Is that a slow twist barrel?
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Old November 28, 2013, 06:44 PM   #11
mehavey
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It's a 60 twist, and reliably prints 1¼" at 100 (benched). I use[d] it for off-hand
silhouette at 100 so that's as far as I've got empirical data.

Assuming a simple sphere spinning at 20,000 RPM doesn't go "unstable"
with range, that's more than enough for the 150yd max I recommend.

Your biggest error by far will still be range estimation/trajectory and hold.
Using RMS for a 1¼" moa best group, BUT combined with a 3-moa 'shake'
and a 3-moa trajectory error, the end result at 150 yards will be a 6.5" grapefruit.

Good enough... if you're really good.

Last edited by mehavey; November 28, 2013 at 07:02 PM.
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Old November 28, 2013, 07:08 PM   #12
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Quote:
What is a good minie twist?
Anything 1/48 or faster should work fine.

Quote:
Any particular recommendations as far as which riflewould bea great long distance shooter?
I haven't found a modern muzzleloader that wouldn't shoot good with the right load. Unless you're going to do a lot of brush hunting, I'd get the rifle with the longest barrel.

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Old November 28, 2013, 08:10 PM   #13
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"I would like to go to a .54 or .58 for my "long range" deer rifle. Ideally I would like a gun that would get out to 200 yards if I do my job right with the iron sights"



Shooting with iron sights past 100 yards is fantasy land when hunting.

1 1/4" groups at 100 yards will get up into the record books with iron sights, most modern deer rifles with scopes will not shoot 1" groups at 100.

Lyman GPR, workmanship and quality have gone in to the pot the last several years.

Need to slow down and look at what your really want in a rifle and what is realistic from a side lock..
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Old November 28, 2013, 09:17 PM   #14
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I've found the 54 GPR to be utterly reliable_no problems here.
But it was starting to kick my a&$ after 40 rounds in a silhouette match.

So I picked up a Thompson Center and put a 40 Cal Green Mtn Barrel on it (same Lyman57 aperture sight)

It might drift a bit more with wind, but like its big brother the 54, it's patched ball gives me more than I can ask for.



(Don'cha just hate it when a cheap Lee mold, casting an underspec ball, outperforms perfectly swaged Hornadys,
AND my expensive/limited-run RCBS double cavity.)
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Old November 28, 2013, 09:17 PM   #15
chickenmcnasty
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.58 muzzleloader questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdf View Post
"I would like to go to a .54 or .58 for my "long range" deer rifle. Ideally I would like a gun that would get out to 200 yards if I do my job right with the iron sights"



Shooting with iron sights past 100 yards is fantasy land when hunting.

1 1/4" groups at 100 yards will get up into the record books with iron sights, most modern deer rifles with scopes will not shoot 1" groups at 100.

Lyman GPR, workmanship and quality have gone in to the pot the last several years.

Need to slow down and look at what your really want in a rifle and what is realistic from a side lock..
With a solid rest and my 30/30 i can keep them minute of Bambi with the buckhorn sights at 200 yds. I wasn't sure if a muzzleloading rifle would be capable of the same with proper load development. We hunt in an area where shots under 150 yds are very rare, and getting deer with center fire rounds has lost its appeal.
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Old November 28, 2013, 09:22 PM   #16
mehavey
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If your min range is 150 and you still want to go Black,
I'd go to a classic single-shot BPCR like a 38-55 or a 45-90...
and shoot Black

I'd also break down and use a scope, for the animal's sake.

Last edited by mehavey; November 28, 2013 at 09:30 PM.
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Old November 28, 2013, 09:36 PM   #17
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Pahoo suggested the LGP-54, mehavey showed its capabilities.

Along with some wise wisdom on the suggested 150yd max. on live targets.

mehavey,

Was the LGP-54 target you posted shot at from 150yds.? If so, open sites or optics?
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Old November 28, 2013, 10:52 PM   #18
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All with iron/aperture sights. Open sights are no longer an option at my age.



The 54-GPR target shown previously was shot at 50 yds, but I use it for 100 yd silhouette.
The 40-T/C (with the Lyman 57 aperture above) was shot at 100.
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Old November 28, 2013, 11:19 PM   #19
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Quote:
With a solid restand my 30/30 i can keep them minute of Bambi with the buckhorn sights at 200 yds. I wasn't sure if a muzzleloading riflewould be capable of the same with proper load development. We hunt in an area where shots under 150 yds are very rare, and getting deer with center fire rounds has lost its appeal.
The 94 Win 30-30 and my BP guns are my go to hunting rifles. My .50 and .58 will take any shot my 30-30 will do.

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Old November 29, 2013, 12:26 AM   #20
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Quote:
The 54-GPR target shown previously was shot at 50 yds, but I use it for 100 yd silhouette.
The 40-T/C (with the Lyman 57 aperture above) was shot at 100
Fine shooting on both counts.
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Old November 29, 2013, 06:18 PM   #21
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Original .58 Enfields were 1:72 twist. Most Italian repros are 1:48. My Enfield will hold minute of five gallon bucket at 300 yards and mushrooms nicely. That's with a charge of 70 grains of Pyrodex and a home cast Lyman traditional minie.
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Old November 29, 2013, 07:32 PM   #22
chickenmcnasty
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.58 muzzleloader questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawg Haggen View Post
Original .58 Enfields were 1:72 twist. Most Italian repros are 1:48. My Enfield will hold minute of five gallon bucket at 300 yards and mushrooms nicely. That's with a charge of 70 grains of Pyrodex and a home cast Lyman traditional minie.
Very nice, which enfield do you have?
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Old November 29, 2013, 07:43 PM   #23
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I have an original and an older Armsport. The Armsport was the one I was referring to. Here's a minie I recovered after going through a metal five gallon bucket and leaving a hole four inches across and nine inches deep in the soft sandy soil of a pond bank from 300 yards.

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Old November 30, 2013, 09:54 AM   #24
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200 is along poke with a .58, If thats the way your going to go the only way to know what your bullet/ball is doing out at 200 is to shoot it alot. The fellows that I know that shoot 200 yds for money test there loads for months before finding one that would count as close enough. You may want to look at a a whitworth rifle if your going to count on long shots
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Old November 30, 2013, 06:31 PM   #25
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Back in the hay day of minie balls and conicals they used to shoot what was called a 40 Rod gun. They would target shoot at 40 rods/220yards, but would often shoot as far as 100 rods/550 yards. Their records are all sub-MOA, even at 550 yards. Yes these were benched rifles, but this shows you how accurate muzzleloaders can be.

Let's compare the ballistics of my .50 and. 58 caplocks, both shooting bullets out of 32" barrels with 150g charge of FFF.

.50 395g bullet @1700 fps. 2535 ft-lbs
Zerod at 125 yrds.
+2.65" @50, +2.1" @100, -3.5 @150, -15.5 @200
990 lbs retained energy @200 yrds

.58 450g bullet @1600 fps 2558 ft-lbs
Zerod @125 yrds.
+3.0 @50, +2.4 @100, -3.9 @150, -17.0 @200
1070 lbs retained energy @200 yrds.

Is not that big of a difference really.

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