non toxic shot in cartridge cases ???

Magnum Wheel Man · May 1, 2015, 10:56 AM

looking for suggestions here...

we have chickens on the farm for personal use & sell a few eggs... bird flu has become an epidemic here in the Midwest... we purposely went "natural" for our hens, with a big outside run, with several trees over the top of the run...

the last couple years, we've had a lot of close nesting ( & robbing feed ) from common sparrows & starlings... well now that bird flu is running rampant, I'm looking for a way of reducing the numbers of birds nesting in the trees & sharing the feeders...

we have a lot of farm cats but seems the feed is enough of an attractant that I need to shoot some???

both problem bird species at small enough, that even a .410 seems like overkill, plus I don't want the hens gobbling up lead shot ( they often pick up rocks & grit for their gizzard...

this leaves me looking for suggestions...

I have a Contender that has a 44 Hot Shot barrel that was chambered to 444 Marlin, so I could load equivalent to 3" .410 from the brass 444 shells... I'd prefer not to load steel shot as the barrel is rifled & has a straightening choke on the end for the Hot Shot cartridges... I don't load much shot shells so I don't really have any experience looking for shot... anything out their ( like bismouth??? ) for the handloader???

or any other suggestions ... ( I did try some 38 Special shot caps out of a handgun... but that was lead shot, & out of a handgun I was not able to hit any of the pest birds... maybe out of my lever gun??? but again, I'd want to load something other than lead shot...

Snyper · May 1, 2015, 11:38 AM

You could load capsules with most anything you like, but I think you'd be better off using a pellet rifle for the birds and a live trap for cats

Keep in mind many songbirds are Federally protected species

sawdustdad · May 1, 2015, 12:04 PM

Yes, be careful of how you deal with birds. Where I used to work, some custodial staff removed a nest from over a doorway because the birds were pooping all over the door. Next thing we know the Feds are at the property and about to take the laborer and the site manager away in handcuffs. An upset employee squealed that the songbird nest (apparently with eggs in it) had been removed. Corporate lawyers intervened and a settlement was worked out that involved $$$$ donated to a conservancy fund.

Magnum Wheel Man · May 1, 2015, 01:09 PM

Ok... yes I understand the song bird thing, & the cats we feed, they are not a problem... Common House Sparrows ( not wrens ) & Starlings... are probably not on a protected list, & even if they were, as paranoid as "everyone" including the government is, around here right now, about bird flu, it's likely not going to be an issue... there are chicken & turkey feed lots that it's wiping out 1000's of birds in just a couple days... we don't farm like that, ( we just keep about 20 hens ) & usually raise 20 - 40 meat birds through the summer...

we are as concerned about keeping the song birds, & because of the wild fruit bushes & such, we have quite a variety here... I'm only worried about the pest birds trying to cohabitate with the chickens

so for now... lets just deal with the non toxic shot thoughts

pellet gun is an option, though most pellets are still lead... BB's might be an option, though not as accurate to hit with... a shot cup would seem easier to shoot smaller birds with ???

T. O'Heir · May 1, 2015, 02:46 PM

Birds nesting in the trees are likely song birds. Illegal in most places to shoot 'em. Sparrows are absolutely considered song birds.
Shooting a cat will likely get you sued by the owner too.
In any case, bismuth shot is readily available. Order it through your local gun shop.

Snyper · May 1, 2015, 04:36 PM

Quote:

pellet gun is an option, though most pellets are still lead.

Pellets are large enough birds will likely leave them alone, and you won't be loosing hundreds of them per shot

You should also look into starling and sparrow traps

SHR970 · May 1, 2015, 04:42 PM

Bismuth.

It is soft like lead and is safe enough to ingest. The salicylate form is the active ingredient in Pepto Bismol.

Edit to add: Fr. Pg 25 of the Minn. hunting regs.: House sparrows, starlings, common pigeons, Eurasian collared dove, chukar, partridge, quail, other than northern bobwhite, and monk parakeets are unprotected and may be taken at any time.

mxsailor803 · May 1, 2015, 04:49 PM

Kind of a random thought, how about rock salt? I doubt it would kill the cats but scare them off enough to never come back. Birds on the other hand, probably would kill them.

hartcreek · May 2, 2015, 02:47 AM

Rock salt will work just fine. I load rock salt 12 gage hulls for an old guy and he uses them on pigeons inside his barn. If he misses the rocksalt does no damage to the barn. When he connects the cats dispose of the evidence.

Snyper · May 2, 2015, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Rock salt will work just fine

If you can get within a few feet it might work, but it's too light to have much range, and worthless if the birds are among your chickens

The OP only mentioned cats as a way to control the birds, but to shoot one with rock salt would be considered "animal cruelty"

A trap near the feeder would be the most effective method

jughead2 · May 2, 2015, 06:20 AM

would like to see something that would scare a cat off and it stay gone. only thing that works for me is trap and take it in.

jughead2 · May 2, 2015, 06:28 AM

double post

snuffy · May 2, 2015, 08:22 AM

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/default.asp

^go there for non-toxic shot and reloading manuals for it. The best non-toxic alternative is hevi shot, but it's terribly expensive.
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Hevi-Shot/products/67/

As far as I know, bismuth is no longer made. It too was very expensive.

Then there's the ITX shot.
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/ITX...ductinfo/TX06/

154 bucks will get you 7 pounds of it.

BP also has any size steel pellets available. #7 steel, 10 pound bag, $18.79. You'll need special steel shot-cups, and load data.

Hope this helps.

SHR970 · May 2, 2015, 12:56 PM

Bismuth has been discontiued sine 07-08 due to an unfortunate passing of the owner of the company. But N.O.S. can still be found.

Tungsten , heavishot, steel, all require special wads and loading.

The components and loading do not lend themselves to use in a 444 Marlin.

SHR970 · May 2, 2015, 12:59 PM

If you have a 22 RF, then you can try CB caps from RWS....they are spendy($44 per 100) but they would do the job once you know their trajectory. They also don't carry much energy so collateral damage in reduced.

snuffy · May 2, 2015, 06:46 PM

SHR970, CCI also makes .22 CB shorts and the same bullet and load in a long case. My dad and I used them for years to defend the martin house from starlings until the martins arrived. The range was about 100 feet from the house upstairs window to the martin house.

I never chronoed those loads, but they were plenty powerful, I would guess they were around 900 FPS for the 29 grain plain lead bullet. AND they were downright accurate, holding 1" easily at that distance. Plenty of dead starlings! Here's a source, out of stock of course.

http://www.natchezss.com/cci-22-coni...ion-56448.html

SHR970 · May 2, 2015, 07:03 PM

But J&G sales has the RWS CB and BB caps in stock.

I try to recommend something that is available as this could be a time sensitive issue.

Marco Califo · May 2, 2015, 08:18 PM

Quote:

I load rock salt 12 gage hulls for an old guy and he uses them on pigeons inside his barn.

I would like to know your load data for the rock salt loads.

And, OP, why not use netting to cover your outside run? I did to keep pheasants in. It would also work to keep the bad birds out.

http://www.3tproducts.com/shop/pc/vi...p?idCategory=2

Magnum- · May 3, 2015, 12:23 AM

Well my suggestion is to load your own shotgun shells , or 44 / 45 long Colt pistol cases using # 7 & 1/2 Nickel Plated Shot . That's what I do for snake control when I'm on the river , or in the woods . You can use Any size shot you would like in your cases... I prefer 7 & 1/2 size shot in a 44 Cal. case for Several reasons

I could show you some great 44 magnum picture loads I make up , if this stupid site aloud me to up load pictures from my picture files .

If your interested" PM me and I can give you some how to load information . I have a good load recipe for 44 mag. cases . You can also use Copper plated Shot" , although Nickel plated shot Will penetrate a whole lot better on birds Or Snakes . Copper or Nickel shot will not lead up your firearm barrel , and safe for chickens / birds .

hartcreek · May 3, 2015, 03:09 AM

I am currently using 21 grains of Red Dot in 2 3/4 inch 12 gage hulls of your choice. For a wad I use Winchester AA wads or equivalent and fill the shot cup with rocksalt.

You could drop the powder charge down to 19 grains even. I use a Lee Load All for all my 12 gage reloading.

Marco Califo · May 3, 2015, 08:22 AM

Thanks!

Magnum Wheel Man · May 4, 2015, 06:00 AM

thanks for all the suggestions guys...

May 1, 2015, 10:56 AM	#1
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	non toxic shot in cartridge cases ??? looking for suggestions here... we have chickens on the farm for personal use & sell a few eggs... bird flu has become an epidemic here in the Midwest... we purposely went "natural" for our hens, with a big outside run, with several trees over the top of the run... the last couple years, we've had a lot of close nesting ( & robbing feed ) from common sparrows & starlings... well now that bird flu is running rampant, I'm looking for a way of reducing the numbers of birds nesting in the trees & sharing the feeders... we have a lot of farm cats but seems the feed is enough of an attractant that I need to shoot some??? both problem bird species at small enough, that even a .410 seems like overkill, plus I don't want the hens gobbling up lead shot ( they often pick up rocks & grit for their gizzard... this leaves me looking for suggestions... I have a Contender that has a 44 Hot Shot barrel that was chambered to 444 Marlin, so I could load equivalent to 3" .410 from the brass 444 shells... I'd prefer not to load steel shot as the barrel is rifled & has a straightening choke on the end for the Hot Shot cartridges... I don't load much shot shells so I don't really have any experience looking for shot... anything out their ( like bismouth??? ) for the handloader??? or any other suggestions ... ( I did try some 38 Special shot caps out of a handgun... but that was lead shot, & out of a handgun I was not able to hit any of the pest birds... maybe out of my lever gun??? but again, I'd want to load something other than lead shot... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

May 1, 2015, 11:38 AM	#2
Snyper Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2013 Location: Eastern NC Posts: 3,047	You could load capsules with most anything you like, but I think you'd be better off using a pellet rifle for the birds and a live trap for cats Keep in mind many songbirds are Federally protected species __________________ One shot, one kill

May 1, 2015, 01:09 PM	#4
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	Ok... yes I understand the song bird thing, & the cats we feed, they are not a problem... Common House Sparrows ( not wrens ) & Starlings... are probably not on a protected list, & even if they were, as paranoid as "everyone" including the government is, around here right now, about bird flu, it's likely not going to be an issue... there are chicken & turkey feed lots that it's wiping out 1000's of birds in just a couple days... we don't farm like that, ( we just keep about 20 hens ) & usually raise 20 - 40 meat birds through the summer... we are as concerned about keeping the song birds, & because of the wild fruit bushes & such, we have quite a variety here... I'm only worried about the pest birds trying to cohabitate with the chickens so for now... lets just deal with the non toxic shot thoughts pellet gun is an option, though most pellets are still lead... BB's might be an option, though not as accurate to hit with... a shot cup would seem easier to shoot smaller birds with ??? __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

May 1, 2015, 02:46 PM	#5
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Birds nesting in the trees are likely song birds. Illegal in most places to shoot 'em. Sparrows are absolutely considered song birds. Shooting a cat will likely get you sued by the owner too. In any case, bismuth shot is readily available. Order it through your local gun shop. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

May 2, 2015, 06:20 AM	#11
jughead2 Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 2008 Location: tenn. Posts: 263	non-toxic shot would like to see something that would scare a cat off and it stay gone. only thing that works for me is trap and take it in.

May 1, 2015, 12:04 PM	#3
sawdustdad Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2014 Location: Virginia Posts: 484	Yes, be careful of how you deal with birds. Where I used to work, some custodial staff removed a nest from over a doorway because the birds were pooping all over the door. Next thing we know the Feds are at the property and about to take the laborer and the site manager away in handcuffs. An upset employee squealed that the songbird nest (apparently with eggs in it) had been removed. Corporate lawyers intervened and a settlement was worked out that involved $$$$ donated to a conservancy fund.

May 1, 2015, 04:42 PM	#7
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	Bismuth. It is soft like lead and is safe enough to ingest. The salicylate form is the active ingredient in Pepto Bismol. Edit to add: Fr. Pg 25 of the Minn. hunting regs.: House sparrows, starlings, common pigeons, Eurasian collared dove, chukar, partridge, quail, other than northern bobwhite, and monk parakeets are unprotected and may be taken at any time. Last edited by SHR970; May 1, 2015 at 04:58 PM.

May 1, 2015, 04:49 PM	#8
mxsailor803 Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2010 Location: SC Posts: 1,344	Kind of a random thought, how about rock salt? I doubt it would kill the cats but scare them off enough to never come back. Birds on the other hand, probably would kill them.

May 2, 2015, 02:47 AM	#9
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	Rock salt will work just fine. I load rock salt 12 gage hulls for an old guy and he uses them on pigeons inside his barn. If he misses the rocksalt does no damage to the barn. When he connects the cats dispose of the evidence.

May 2, 2015, 06:28 AM	#12
jughead2 Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 2008 Location: tenn. Posts: 263	toxic shot double post Last edited by jughead2; May 2, 2015 at 06:31 AM. Reason: pushed wrong button

May 2, 2015, 08:22 AM	#13
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	http://www.ballisticproducts.com/default.asp ^go there for non-toxic shot and reloading manuals for it. The best non-toxic alternative is hevi shot, but it's terribly expensive. http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Hevi-Shot/products/67/ As far as I know, bismuth is no longer made. It too was very expensive. Then there's the ITX shot. http://www.ballisticproducts.com/ITX...ductinfo/TX06/ 154 bucks will get you 7 pounds of it. BP also has any size steel pellets available. #7 steel, 10 pound bag, $18.79. You'll need special steel shot-cups, and load data. Hope this helps. __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

May 2, 2015, 12:56 PM	#14
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	Bismuth has been discontiued sine 07-08 due to an unfortunate passing of the owner of the company. But N.O.S. can still be found. Tungsten , heavishot, steel, all require special wads and loading. The components and loading do not lend themselves to use in a 444 Marlin.

May 2, 2015, 12:59 PM	#15
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	If you have a 22 RF, then you can try CB caps from RWS....they are spendy($44 per 100) but they would do the job once you know their trajectory. They also don't carry much energy so collateral damage in reduced.

May 2, 2015, 06:46 PM	#16
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	SHR970, CCI also makes .22 CB shorts and the same bullet and load in a long case. My dad and I used them for years to defend the martin house from starlings until the martins arrived. The range was about 100 feet from the house upstairs window to the martin house. I never chronoed those loads, but they were plenty powerful, I would guess they were around 900 FPS for the 29 grain plain lead bullet. AND they were downright accurate, holding 1" easily at that distance. Plenty of dead starlings! Here's a source, out of stock of course. http://www.natchezss.com/cci-22-coni...ion-56448.html __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

May 2, 2015, 07:03 PM	#17
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	But J&G sales has the RWS CB and BB caps in stock. I try to recommend something that is available as this could be a time sensitive issue.

May 3, 2015, 12:23 AM	#19
Magnum- Junior Member Join Date: April 21, 2015 Posts: 10	Bird / Snake Loads Well my suggestion is to load your own shotgun shells , or 44 / 45 long Colt pistol cases using # 7 & 1/2 Nickel Plated Shot . That's what I do for snake control when I'm on the river , or in the woods . You can use Any size shot you would like in your cases... I prefer 7 & 1/2 size shot in a 44 Cal. case for Several reasons I could show you some great 44 magnum picture loads I make up , if this stupid site aloud me to up load pictures from my picture files . If your interested" PM me and I can give you some how to load information . I have a good load recipe for 44 mag. cases . You can also use Copper plated Shot" , although Nickel plated shot Will penetrate a whole lot better on birds Or Snakes . Copper or Nickel shot will not lead up your firearm barrel , and safe for chickens / birds .

May 3, 2015, 03:09 AM	#20
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	I am currently using 21 grains of Red Dot in 2 3/4 inch 12 gage hulls of your choice. For a wad I use Winchester AA wads or equivalent and fill the shot cup with rocksalt. You could drop the powder charge down to 19 grains even. I use a Lee Load All for all my 12 gage reloading.

May 3, 2015, 08:22 AM	#21
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	Thanks! __________________ ............

May 4, 2015, 06:00 AM	#22
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	thanks for all the suggestions guys... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...