Chamber directly after FL size?

mrawesome22 · July 30, 2006, 04:53 PM

Should I be able to chamber a shell directly after it's been FL sized or do I have to seat a bullet first? I tried to FL size some once fired brass and then right after it came out of the size die I tried to chamber them and none of them would fit. This might seem like a dumb question but it was my very first time. The info I read here http://www.exteriorballistics.com/re...ics/resize.cfm says nothing about seating a bullet before chambering for headspace check. And another thing is my Hornady seating die for .22-250 came with directions for a crimp and non-crimp? Which do I want? I see no crimp on factory ammo but if I don't need to crimp, why even have it as an option? O.K. thanks guys. I got a lot to learn so please be patient.

Ammo Junky · July 30, 2006, 05:21 PM

Most people do not crimp bolt rifle ammo. You should be able to close the bolt easily on a fl sized brass. You need to feed it directily into the chamber with a finger then close the bolt. I would run your sizing die to contact the shell holder size a brass and try it. Turn the die an additiona 1/16 turn and try it agian untill the bolt closes with the same feel as a new rnd. most dies need to turn 1/8 to 1/4 more than contact with the shell holder to fl size. Be sure to re lube the case between sizeings or you will have a real problem and wipe lube off before chambering the rnd or you could have an even bigger problem. If you really want to percisely fl size your rifle cases, you need to get an rcbs mic guage or better yet a stony point head space measuring guage. So you can measure the shoulder bump. .002 or .003 should do it.
Good luck

Ares45 · July 30, 2006, 05:23 PM

1st you need a case/headspace gage. If your resized brass seats fully in the gage and falls out easily then you know your sizing die is adjusted properly, or at least to SAMMI specs for that particular round.

In MOST cases, a taper crimp is used for cartridges that headspace off the case mouth or straightwalled cases, like .45ACP. A roll crimp is normally used for cartidges that headspace off the neck, such as bottlenecked rifle ammo. Whether or not you crimp and which you crimp you use depends on the round you're trying to load and what gun your shooting it in. Anything loaded in a semi-auto should be crimped to avoid bullet setback during recoil. If the bullet gets jammed back into the case under recoil it could create dangerous pressures when fired.

Ammo Junky · July 30, 2006, 05:29 PM

Oh yes, the crimping. When you have the brass sized and trimmed, switch to the seating die
to set the die to not crimp
1 run the seatind die in just a couple of threads into the press.
2 put a sized / tirmmed case in the press and run it all the way up
3 thread the die down to where it touches the case mouth. It will be obvious.
4 back the die up 1 full turn and lock the die ring
5 make seating adjustments with the seating stem on the very top of the die.

good luck

amamnn · July 30, 2006, 07:38 PM

The short answer is yes you should be able to chamber an empty sized case, assuming it has been trimmed correctly and the shoulder is not out of tolerance. It can be worth your while to invest in some tools like the RCBS precision mic for your caliber and also the RCBS case master.
I have not taken any surveys lately, but I know most shooters that hunt around here and reload DO crimp their rounds, bolt, lever, single shot or auto. However, they mostly crimp as a separate process from seating. When properly used, collet crimpers such as the Lee Factory Crimp die can be of benefit to all shooters. Please note the foregoing caveat.
Crimping serves two purposes. For ammo that may be subjected to shocks, either from firing or dropping the rifle or some other whack, crimping keeps the bullet in place. A good many hunting bullets are cannelured for just this purpose and have been for years, the world over. Crimps also help to uniform start pressures in rounds that have not been loaded with super close tolerance (expensive) dies. However, in order to do that the pressure used to apply the crimp must be closely regulated and over-crimping avoided.
Many older shooters still think that a cannelure is needed to crimp a round, and when they do not see one, the assume that the ammunition is not crimped. This is not true, and is the basis for the invention and marketing of the Lee Factory Crimper.
Unless you are shooting a very tightly spec'ed custom rifle, like a benchrest or long range match rifle, and loading very tightly spec'ed ammo, a good crimp can help a bit.

mrawesome22 · July 30, 2006, 11:59 PM

O.K. I think I was turning the die the wrong way after contact with shell holder. I was turning out not in. Will try again in the morning and report back.

mrawesome22 · July 31, 2006, 07:46 AM

One more thing, I'm using as RCBS shell holder with my Hornady die. Is this fine or do I have to use a Hornady shell holder? I never even thought about that one. I just figured a shellholder is a shellholder.

Ausserordeutlich · July 31, 2006, 08:43 AM

Shellholder brand doesn't matter, as long as you're correctly setting up the sizing die.

mrawesome22 · July 31, 2006, 09:15 AM

O.K. Tell me if I'm setting up the sizing die correctly. I have a Rock Chucker Supreme and I assumed by the action of it that it does not have any cam. So I raised the ram as high as it would go. Handle all the way down. Then I screwed the die all the way down until it would not go any farther. Spun the lock washer down, tightened the set screw, lubed a case, ran it up, ran it down, tried to chamber it, bolt will not close. Even took out the expander ball and it wouldn't chamber. Should I let the die touch the shell holder then screw in a quarter turn as suggested or am I just doing something wrong? I miced the shells before and after and all seemed to be exactly the same on every measurement I could think of.

918v · July 31, 2006, 09:43 AM

That is because you have a tight chamber and/or loose FL die. Further, the press springs a couple of thousands of an inch. You need to screw down that die until the shell holder jams against it and the handle cams over. Then retest.

mrawesome22 · July 31, 2006, 09:55 AM

Right, well this is the new plan. Raise ram to full extension. Seat die on shell holder. LOWER die quarter turn. See what happens. If this works I'm going to be very excited because it seems like I have a very nice chamber. If, after the quarter in turn, one will chamber I'm going to back out one sixteenth turns until they no longer chamber. Once I feel resistance I'm gonna go back in one eighth turn and if that chambers well I'm gonna size all my brass at that setting. Sound like a plan to you guys? Thanks everyone for all their help.

918v · July 31, 2006, 09:58 AM

I would't bother adjusting further on your gun. You need .003-.005" of headspace to chamber reliably. Remember that brass springs back initially, then a little more over time.

mrawesome22 · July 31, 2006, 10:16 AM

well, if I turn one quarter in after contact with shell holder and they chamber, and I know that they won't chamber with just shell holder contact, do you think I'll be in the ballpark?

kingudaroad · July 31, 2006, 01:39 PM

Ammo Junkie said
"Turn the die an additiona 1/16 turn and try it agian untill the bolt closes with the same feel as a new rnd. most dies need to turn 1/8 to 1/4 more than contact with the shell holder to fl size"

Good answer!

mrawesome22 · July 31, 2006, 10:39 PM

Well I turned the die in one quarter turn after shell holder contact and all is well now. They chamber great. Thanks for the help.

July 30, 2006, 04:53 PM	#1
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Chamber directly after FL size? Should I be able to chamber a shell directly after it's been FL sized or do I have to seat a bullet first? I tried to FL size some once fired brass and then right after it came out of the size die I tried to chamber them and none of them would fit. This might seem like a dumb question but it was my very first time. The info I read here http://www.exteriorballistics.com/re...ics/resize.cfm says nothing about seating a bullet before chambering for headspace check. And another thing is my Hornady seating die for .22-250 came with directions for a crimp and non-crimp? Which do I want? I see no crimp on factory ammo but if I don't need to crimp, why even have it as an option? O.K. thanks guys. I got a lot to learn so please be patient.

July 30, 2006, 05:21 PM	#2
Ammo Junky Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: IL Posts: 537	Most people do not crimp bolt rifle ammo. You should be able to close the bolt easily on a fl sized brass. You need to feed it directily into the chamber with a finger then close the bolt. I would run your sizing die to contact the shell holder size a brass and try it. Turn the die an additiona 1/16 turn and try it agian untill the bolt closes with the same feel as a new rnd. most dies need to turn 1/8 to 1/4 more than contact with the shell holder to fl size. Be sure to re lube the case between sizeings or you will have a real problem and wipe lube off before chambering the rnd or you could have an even bigger problem. If you really want to percisely fl size your rifle cases, you need to get an rcbs mic guage or better yet a stony point head space measuring guage. So you can measure the shoulder bump. .002 or .003 should do it. Good luck __________________ Will work for brass. I apologise in advance for spelling errors.

July 30, 2006, 05:29 PM	#4
Ammo Junky Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: IL Posts: 537	Oh yes, the crimping. When you have the brass sized and trimmed, switch to the seating die to set the die to not crimp 1 run the seatind die in just a couple of threads into the press. 2 put a sized / tirmmed case in the press and run it all the way up 3 thread the die down to where it touches the case mouth. It will be obvious. 4 back the die up 1 full turn and lock the die ring 5 make seating adjustments with the seating stem on the very top of the die. good luck __________________ Will work for brass. I apologise in advance for spelling errors.

July 30, 2006, 07:38 PM	#5
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	The short answer is yes you should be able to chamber an empty sized case, assuming it has been trimmed correctly and the shoulder is not out of tolerance. It can be worth your while to invest in some tools like the RCBS precision mic for your caliber and also the RCBS case master. I have not taken any surveys lately, but I know most shooters that hunt around here and reload DO crimp their rounds, bolt, lever, single shot or auto. However, they mostly crimp as a separate process from seating. When properly used, collet crimpers such as the Lee Factory Crimp die can be of benefit to all shooters. Please note the foregoing caveat. Crimping serves two purposes. For ammo that may be subjected to shocks, either from firing or dropping the rifle or some other whack, crimping keeps the bullet in place. A good many hunting bullets are cannelured for just this purpose and have been for years, the world over. Crimps also help to uniform start pressures in rounds that have not been loaded with super close tolerance (expensive) dies. However, in order to do that the pressure used to apply the crimp must be closely regulated and over-crimping avoided. Many older shooters still think that a cannelure is needed to crimp a round, and when they do not see one, the assume that the ammunition is not crimped. This is not true, and is the basis for the invention and marketing of the Lee Factory Crimper. Unless you are shooting a very tightly spec'ed custom rifle, like a benchrest or long range match rifle, and loading very tightly spec'ed ammo, a good crimp can help a bit. __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

July 30, 2006, 05:23 PM	#3
Ares45 Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2005 Posts: 211	1st you need a case/headspace gage. If your resized brass seats fully in the gage and falls out easily then you know your sizing die is adjusted properly, or at least to SAMMI specs for that particular round. In MOST cases, a taper crimp is used for cartridges that headspace off the case mouth or straightwalled cases, like .45ACP. A roll crimp is normally used for cartidges that headspace off the neck, such as bottlenecked rifle ammo. Whether or not you crimp and which you crimp you use depends on the round you're trying to load and what gun your shooting it in. Anything loaded in a semi-auto should be crimped to avoid bullet setback during recoil. If the bullet gets jammed back into the case under recoil it could create dangerous pressures when fired.

July 30, 2006, 11:59 PM	#6
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	O.K. I think I was turning the die the wrong way after contact with shell holder. I was turning out not in. Will try again in the morning and report back.

July 31, 2006, 07:46 AM	#7
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	One more thing, I'm using as RCBS shell holder with my Hornady die. Is this fine or do I have to use a Hornady shell holder? I never even thought about that one. I just figured a shellholder is a shellholder.

July 31, 2006, 08:43 AM	#8
Ausserordeutlich Junior member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 996	Shellholder brand doesn't matter, as long as you're correctly setting up the sizing die.

July 31, 2006, 09:15 AM	#9
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	O.K. Tell me if I'm setting up the sizing die correctly. I have a Rock Chucker Supreme and I assumed by the action of it that it does not have any cam. So I raised the ram as high as it would go. Handle all the way down. Then I screwed the die all the way down until it would not go any farther. Spun the lock washer down, tightened the set screw, lubed a case, ran it up, ran it down, tried to chamber it, bolt will not close. Even took out the expander ball and it wouldn't chamber. Should I let the die touch the shell holder then screw in a quarter turn as suggested or am I just doing something wrong? I miced the shells before and after and all seemed to be exactly the same on every measurement I could think of.

July 31, 2006, 09:43 AM	#10
918v Junior member Join Date: September 25, 2005 Posts: 1,372	That is because you have a tight chamber and/or loose FL die. Further, the press springs a couple of thousands of an inch. You need to screw down that die until the shell holder jams against it and the handle cams over. Then retest.

July 31, 2006, 09:55 AM	#11
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Right, well this is the new plan. Raise ram to full extension. Seat die on shell holder. LOWER die quarter turn. See what happens. If this works I'm going to be very excited because it seems like I have a very nice chamber. If, after the quarter in turn, one will chamber I'm going to back out one sixteenth turns until they no longer chamber. Once I feel resistance I'm gonna go back in one eighth turn and if that chambers well I'm gonna size all my brass at that setting. Sound like a plan to you guys? Thanks everyone for all their help.

July 31, 2006, 09:58 AM	#12
918v Junior member Join Date: September 25, 2005 Posts: 1,372	I would't bother adjusting further on your gun. You need .003-.005" of headspace to chamber reliably. Remember that brass springs back initially, then a little more over time.

July 31, 2006, 10:16 AM	#13
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	well, if I turn one quarter in after contact with shell holder and they chamber, and I know that they won't chamber with just shell holder contact, do you think I'll be in the ballpark?

July 31, 2006, 01:39 PM	#14
kingudaroad Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Location: austin Posts: 735	Ammo Junkie said "Turn the die an additiona 1/16 turn and try it agian untill the bolt closes with the same feel as a new rnd. most dies need to turn 1/8 to 1/4 more than contact with the shell holder to fl size" Good answer!

July 31, 2006, 10:39 PM	#15
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Well I turned the die in one quarter turn after shell holder contact and all is well now. They chamber great. Thanks for the help.