.38 plated bullets

savagetroll · January 17, 2016, 09:59 PM

New to reloading, I plan on loading some .38 with Berry's 125 gr plated fp for my first rounds using Bullseye. I have 3 manuals, Lee, Hornady and Lyman 49. All Are All Over the place on load data. I am thinking somewhere between 3.5 to 4 gr to start. Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks

9x45 · January 17, 2016, 11:11 PM

Always go with the powder makers website data, not load manuals. 3.5 grains is fine to start with.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...1&cartridge=26

Kosh75287 · January 17, 2016, 11:17 PM

Split the difference, and start at 3.7 or 3.8/Bull'sEye. Are you loading these for Cowboy Action? Plinking?

savagetroll · January 17, 2016, 11:43 PM

The powder makers site only shows BE powder, I am mainly just looking for a good first batch for .38. Mainly for plinking I guess, but not necessarily an ultra light load. I also have some Win231 and CFE but will probably use them for .45 acp. I have heard that you use cast data for plated bullets but yhat doesn't seem right. Thanks

mmb713 · January 18, 2016, 12:30 AM

Alliant's reloading guide shows a max charge of 4.5gr of Bullseye with the Speer 125gr GDHP in 38 Special. 10% below this would be a start of 4.0gr. Alliant shows a max charge of 4.8gr for 38 Special +P with the same bullet. Either of these loads will be well below the 1200fps threshold for max velocity for plated bullets. I would use Alliant's data and start at 4.0gr and work up to 4.5gr. Determining correct OAL with your plated FPs is important too.

savagetroll · January 18, 2016, 12:35 AM

Thanks mmb713, OAL is definitely something I am concerned about as well. I'll probably keep it a little above minimum, once I determine minimum. Any ideas on oal? Thanks

Real Gun · January 18, 2016, 07:28 AM

Quote:

I have heard that you use cast data for plated bullets but yhat doesn't seem right.

Always use low to medium range jacketed data for plated, or you might stick a bullet. Going higher could lose the plating (and accuracy), but no harm in probing the limit step by step.

hartcreek · January 18, 2016, 07:44 AM

So many will suggest using lead data for plated bullets but then others such as Real Gun and myself are right. Many reloading manuals do not show plated data and others show lawyer inspired loading data. I would load the Berrys with 4.4 -5.1 of Bulleseye just like I did with Raniers and roll crimp them to a factory length OAL.

savagetroll · January 18, 2016, 08:13 AM

I am leaning towards factory OAL like suggested, as far as crimping my Lee dies have the "factory" crimp which I am assuming will suffice. Thanks

mmb713 · January 18, 2016, 08:31 PM

savagetroll-

To determine OAL with plated bullets I like to seat them to the same depth as the bullets used in the data I am using. To do this you will need to know the length of the bullet being used. The easiest way is to buy a box of Speer 125gr GPHP bullets and measure them. Speer lists an OAL of 1.470" with the 125gr GDHP in 38 Special. Subtract the length of the GDHP from 1.470" and you will have the distance from the case head to the base of the seated bullet. Add this number to the length of your 125gr FPs and you will have the OAL of your FPs seated to the same depth as the Speer GDHP.

As far as crimping goes I use the Lee FCD to crimp. I have found that a half of a turn down after the crimping stem touches the case mouth works great for roll crimping plated bullets. A half turn works great for taper crimping auto pistol cartridges too.

savagetroll · January 18, 2016, 10:36 PM

Thanks MMB713, I actually just bought a box of Hornady XTP 125 grhp today. Probably gonna load them and measure from there. Thanks for the advice on the 1/2 turn on the crimp as well.

savagetroll · January 18, 2016, 10:47 PM

I also checked the case lengths, they vary. I am assuming it would be a good idea to trim all to a uniform size. I have heard some say they never trim pistol brass but it seems like it couldnt hurt. Thanks

DMY · January 18, 2016, 11:56 PM

Savagetroll,
I started using this same bullet out of my 3 inch Python a few months ago and I really like the bullet. I use the following in .38 brass, which are relatively light, paper-punching loads:

4.2 - 4.5 grs of Bullseye, 4.2 - 4.8 grs of 231, or 3.5 grs of Tight group over a CCI or Federal primer. I seat it at 1.44" - 1.45" COL with a little roll crimp. The powder measurements are what the fixed rotors for my RCBS Lil Dandy throw. There is very little recoil with this load, even though the 231 load was the maximum recommended by Hogdon.

I have shot 6-shot groups as little as 1" at 35 feet which is about as far as I can see with my trifocal glasses. I am confident my gun with this bullet is capable of much better. Be careful not to over-crimp because the plated bullets will easily cut. I have shot bullets which I previously seated, pulled and re-used with cut plating. They were still pretty accurate.

savagetroll · January 19, 2016, 01:30 AM

Thanks DMY, my .38 is just a S&W airweight, 641 I believe. It's my pocket gun. I have some win 231 as well, and plan on trying a few loads with it, but will probably use it for my 45XD, along with some CFE. Appreciate the input.

Real Gun · January 19, 2016, 07:49 AM

Quote:

savagetroll - Thanks MMB713, I actually just bought a box of Hornady XTP 125 grhp today.

XTP is a different COL story than your plated. The crimp groove on the XTP predetermines where the crimp should be. Common advice is to seat to where only a glimpse of the groove remains after crimp. In any case, the COL in the Hornady book, preferably #9, is your guide. There is some leeway in acceptability of the exact number you achieve. No need to feel like it is critical to a few thousandths unless too long to fit the closed cylinder.

Real Gun · January 19, 2016, 08:01 AM

Quote:

I also checked the case lengths, they vary. I am assuming it would be a good idea to trim all to a uniform size. I have heard some say they never trim pistol brass but it seems like it couldnt hurt. Thanks

Suit yourself without letting perfection become an obsession. I know trimming as only called for when cases are over the max length. The precision used in rifle loading is not necessary with most handgun ammo. I have trimmed though, when I changed 44 Magnum over to a die that was easier on the case mouths. I just squared up the edges, generating very few shavings, but did discover that brand new, unfired Starline was already well under max. The crimp groove, if you don't seat to completely cover the groove, allows for accepting variance in the case lengths. Crimping in the middle of the groove gives you maximum +- tolerance.

Be careful with reusing Hornady brass from FTX rounds, because they are short and are useful only with FTX without guessing at pressure differences with regular bullets. Sort your brass by headstamp and measure the Hornadys. I segregate mine to where I actually never use Hornady, although I did purchase FTX bullets to enable using the brass in a pinch. It works best to buy FTX ammo only in nickel cases, which you can spot easily enough when cleaning brass.

DMY · January 19, 2016, 02:16 PM

Savagetroll:
As it so happens, I took my late father's old 1970's era Colt Agent to the range this past weekend and shot some of the Berry's 125 gr FP over 3.1 grs of 231. The Agent is also an aluminum alloy lightweight frame with a 2" steel barrel. The Berry's shot well and had less recoil than my 148 gr LHBWC. Haven't tried the Berry's with Bullseye or TightGroup in the Agent, but the other powders performed well in my 3" Python.

mikld · January 19, 2016, 02:52 PM

Ferget the Lee manual's data section (load data is lacking). Hornady's manual/data is for Hornady's jacketed bullets (except mebbe for a swaged lead bullet). Use Lyman's manual with data for a cast lead 125 gr. bullet (I know, the manufacturer says "mid level jacketed", but that's not starting loads, that's for max. loads).

Hint to a new reloader; start with tried and true loads/components. A .38 Special with 158 gr lead bullet has been reloaded 19.64 bizillion times and every possible problem has been worked out and reported on in many forums. Also. find a load in your manual before you buy components. Many fewer headaches trying to find load data.

For your immediate problem, if you have different loads/charges for a specific bullet and powder, start with the lowest charge. You can always work up w/higher charges.

savagetroll · January 19, 2016, 09:00 PM

Mikld:

I have all 3 of those books, and they vary quite a bit. The main reason I am going with 125's are because that is the weight of the HP's I carry on me, when Im not carrying my .45. Definitely gonna start low. Recoil does not bother me, just want something to mimic my carry round. One of many reasons I started is that I plan on getting a 454 Casul soon. Not a millionaire so gotta play that smart. Thanks

mikld · January 20, 2016, 01:46 PM

Quote:

For your immediate problem, if you have different loads/charges for a specific bullet and powder, start with the lowest charge. You can always work up w/higher charges.

Your Lee manual, IMO, is only fair at best for load data.

Your Hornady manual is dedicated to Hornady jacketed bullets only (and of course load data will be different than that for your plated bullets).

Your Lyman manual is the best choice, with lead bullet data used for your plated bullets (manufactures say "mid-jacketed level" loads for maximum charges, no mention of starting loads).

The data for lead bullets and jacketed bullets will differ (Hornady vs Lyman).

Go slow, double check everything, and have fun...

Real Gun · January 20, 2016, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Your Hornady manual is dedicated to Hornady jacketed bullets only (and of course load data will be different than that for your plated bullets).

Hornady loads definitely can apply as long as the bullets bearing surface is similar. Jacketed is jacketed, and plated has essentially the same friction and galling.

There is no real challenge in using jacketed data for plated. Advice to use low to medium load data is not that complicated. Whoever said to use lead bullet data is mistaken in my view.

T. O'Heir · January 20, 2016, 02:14 PM

The Speer 125gr GDHP is a jacketed bullet. A plated bullet is not jacketed. That 4.5 is the MAX load for a jacketed bullet as well. Just load 'em with cast bullet data and you'll be fine.
The Lee manual's data comes from the powder maker. Lee tests nothing themselves.

Real Gun · January 20, 2016, 02:44 PM

Quote:

A plated bullet is not jacketed.

The significant functional difference is maximum velocity, where the plated is limited.

The GDHP bullet is bonded, a form of plating. The Gold Dot comes from the punch mark in the nose, leaving a trace of the plating appearing like a "gold dot".

buck460XVR · January 20, 2016, 02:46 PM

Quote:

The significant functional difference is maximum velocity, where the plated is limited.

The GDHP bullet is bonded, a form of plating. The Gold Dot comes from the punch mark in the nose, leaving a trace of the plating appearing like a "gold dot".

....yep.

Berry's recommends using low to mid range jacketed bullet recipes with it's plated bullets. Seat them to the OAL as shown in the recipe. If one starts low and works up, there should no be a problem. The only problem would be keeping the non-cannelured bullets from jumping crimp at the upper end of it's load limit.

savagetroll · January 20, 2016, 07:32 PM

Thanks to all, I loaded my first batch tonight, tried something that I had better info on
.38 Hornady xtp 125 gr hp
Win231 5 gr (my Lee disk was supposed to be 4.9 but I figured 5 was safe from the bottom end of 4.8)
Winchester new brass
CCI 500 primers
OAL 1.466
Loaded 12 rounds shot 2 (getting dark)
Went smooth on Lee turret press once I got the flare adjusted
The 2 in shot were fine, virtually no recoil
I have yet to get a chrono but it is on my quick list.

All info taken directly from the Hornady Manual

Thanks to all, I'll try the plated soon

January 17, 2016, 09:59 PM	#1
savagetroll Member Join Date: January 16, 2016 Posts: 20	.38 plated bullets New to reloading, I plan on loading some .38 with Berry's 125 gr plated fp for my first rounds using Bullseye. I have 3 manuals, Lee, Hornady and Lyman 49. All Are All Over the place on load data. I am thinking somewhere between 3.5 to 4 gr to start. Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks

January 17, 2016, 11:11 PM	#2
9x45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,089	Always go with the powder makers website data, not load manuals. 3.5 grains is fine to start with. http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...1&cartridge=26 __________________ Sometimes my Glock forgets where to look.....

January 17, 2016, 11:17 PM	#3
Kosh75287 Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2007 Posts: 820	Split the difference, and start at 3.7 or 3.8/Bull'sEye. Are you loading these for Cowboy Action? Plinking? __________________ GOD BLESS JEFF COOPER, whose instructions, consultations, and publications have probably saved more lives than can ever be reliably calculated. DVC, sir. انجلو. المسلحة. جاهزة. Carpe SCOTCH!

January 18, 2016, 11:56 PM	#13
DMY Senior Member Join Date: September 10, 2015 Posts: 152	my experience with this bullet Savagetroll, I started using this same bullet out of my 3 inch Python a few months ago and I really like the bullet. I use the following in .38 brass, which are relatively light, paper-punching loads: 4.2 - 4.5 grs of Bullseye, 4.2 - 4.8 grs of 231, or 3.5 grs of Tight group over a CCI or Federal primer. I seat it at 1.44" - 1.45" COL with a little roll crimp. The powder measurements are what the fixed rotors for my RCBS Lil Dandy throw. There is very little recoil with this load, even though the 231 load was the maximum recommended by Hogdon. I have shot 6-shot groups as little as 1" at 35 feet which is about as far as I can see with my trifocal glasses. I am confident my gun with this bullet is capable of much better. Be careful not to over-crimp because the plated bullets will easily cut. I have shot bullets which I previously seated, pulled and re-used with cut plating. They were still pretty accurate.

January 19, 2016, 02:16 PM	#17
DMY Senior Member Join Date: September 10, 2015 Posts: 152	works for lightweight belly guns also Savagetroll: As it so happens, I took my late father's old 1970's era Colt Agent to the range this past weekend and shot some of the Berry's 125 gr FP over 3.1 grs of 231. The Agent is also an aluminum alloy lightweight frame with a 2" steel barrel. The Berry's shot well and had less recoil than my 148 gr LHBWC. Haven't tried the Berry's with Bullseye or TightGroup in the Agent, but the other powders performed well in my 3" Python.

January 17, 2016, 11:43 PM	#4
savagetroll Member Join Date: January 16, 2016 Posts: 20	The powder makers site only shows BE powder, I am mainly just looking for a good first batch for .38. Mainly for plinking I guess, but not necessarily an ultra light load. I also have some Win231 and CFE but will probably use them for .45 acp. I have heard that you use cast data for plated bullets but yhat doesn't seem right. Thanks

January 18, 2016, 12:30 AM	#5
mmb713 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2011 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 421	Alliant's reloading guide shows a max charge of 4.5gr of Bullseye with the Speer 125gr GDHP in 38 Special. 10% below this would be a start of 4.0gr. Alliant shows a max charge of 4.8gr for 38 Special +P with the same bullet. Either of these loads will be well below the 1200fps threshold for max velocity for plated bullets. I would use Alliant's data and start at 4.0gr and work up to 4.5gr. Determining correct OAL with your plated FPs is important too.

January 18, 2016, 12:35 AM	#6
savagetroll Member Join Date: January 16, 2016 Posts: 20	Thanks mmb713, OAL is definitely something I am concerned about as well. I'll probably keep it a little above minimum, once I determine minimum. Any ideas on oal? Thanks

January 18, 2016, 07:44 AM	#8
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	So many will suggest using lead data for plated bullets but then others such as Real Gun and myself are right. Many reloading manuals do not show plated data and others show lawyer inspired loading data. I would load the Berrys with 4.4 -5.1 of Bulleseye just like I did with Raniers and roll crimp them to a factory length OAL.

January 18, 2016, 08:13 AM	#9
savagetroll Member Join Date: January 16, 2016 Posts: 20	I am leaning towards factory OAL like suggested, as far as crimping my Lee dies have the "factory" crimp which I am assuming will suffice. Thanks

January 18, 2016, 08:31 PM	#10
mmb713 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2011 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 421	savagetroll- To determine OAL with plated bullets I like to seat them to the same depth as the bullets used in the data I am using. To do this you will need to know the length of the bullet being used. The easiest way is to buy a box of Speer 125gr GPHP bullets and measure them. Speer lists an OAL of 1.470" with the 125gr GDHP in 38 Special. Subtract the length of the GDHP from 1.470" and you will have the distance from the case head to the base of the seated bullet. Add this number to the length of your 125gr FPs and you will have the OAL of your FPs seated to the same depth as the Speer GDHP. As far as crimping goes I use the Lee FCD to crimp. I have found that a half of a turn down after the crimping stem touches the case mouth works great for roll crimping plated bullets. A half turn works great for taper crimping auto pistol cartridges too.

January 18, 2016, 10:36 PM	#11
savagetroll Member Join Date: January 16, 2016 Posts: 20	Thanks MMB713, I actually just bought a box of Hornady XTP 125 grhp today. Probably gonna load them and measure from there. Thanks for the advice on the 1/2 turn on the crimp as well.

January 18, 2016, 10:47 PM	#12
savagetroll Member Join Date: January 16, 2016 Posts: 20	I also checked the case lengths, they vary. I am assuming it would be a good idea to trim all to a uniform size. I have heard some say they never trim pistol brass but it seems like it couldnt hurt. Thanks

January 19, 2016, 01:30 AM	#14
savagetroll Member Join Date: January 16, 2016 Posts: 20	Thanks DMY, my .38 is just a S&W airweight, 641 I believe. It's my pocket gun. I have some win 231 as well, and plan on trying a few loads with it, but will probably use it for my 45XD, along with some CFE. Appreciate the input.

January 19, 2016, 02:52 PM	#18
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Ferget the Lee manual's data section (load data is lacking). Hornady's manual/data is for Hornady's jacketed bullets (except mebbe for a swaged lead bullet). Use Lyman's manual with data for a cast lead 125 gr. bullet (I know, the manufacturer says "mid level jacketed", but that's not starting loads, that's for max. loads). Hint to a new reloader; start with tried and true loads/components. A .38 Special with 158 gr lead bullet has been reloaded 19.64 bizillion times and every possible problem has been worked out and reported on in many forums. Also. find a load in your manual before you buy components. Many fewer headaches trying to find load data. For your immediate problem, if you have different loads/charges for a specific bullet and powder, start with the lowest charge. You can always work up w/higher charges. __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

January 19, 2016, 09:00 PM	#19
savagetroll Member Join Date: January 16, 2016 Posts: 20	Mikld: I have all 3 of those books, and they vary quite a bit. The main reason I am going with 125's are because that is the weight of the HP's I carry on me, when Im not carrying my .45. Definitely gonna start low. Recoil does not bother me, just want something to mimic my carry round. One of many reasons I started is that I plan on getting a 454 Casul soon. Not a millionaire so gotta play that smart. Thanks

January 20, 2016, 02:14 PM	#22
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	The Speer 125gr GDHP is a jacketed bullet. A plated bullet is not jacketed. That 4.5 is the MAX load for a jacketed bullet as well. Just load 'em with cast bullet data and you'll be fine. The Lee manual's data comes from the powder maker. Lee tests nothing themselves. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

January 20, 2016, 07:32 PM	#25
savagetroll Member Join Date: January 16, 2016 Posts: 20	Thanks to all, I loaded my first batch tonight, tried something that I had better info on .38 Hornady xtp 125 gr hp Win231 5 gr (my Lee disk was supposed to be 4.9 but I figured 5 was safe from the bottom end of 4.8) Winchester new brass CCI 500 primers OAL 1.466 Loaded 12 rounds shot 2 (getting dark) Went smooth on Lee turret press once I got the flare adjusted The 2 in shot were fine, virtually no recoil I have yet to get a chrono but it is on my quick list. All info taken directly from the Hornady Manual Thanks to all, I'll try the plated soon Last edited by savagetroll; January 20, 2016 at 08:49 PM.