More on mass shootings and sole responders - Page 2

Tennessee Gentleman · April 29, 2009, 04:24 PM

Glenn,

Not to oversimply your point but it seems in situations like the Tacoma Mall and the Burger King incident one who wishes to use their CCW to stop a BG needs to follow a saying I have heard none other than the famous Michael Bane repeat; "If you are gonna shoot; shoot!" and the implicit "Don't talk about shooting instead".

Glenn E. Meyer · April 29, 2009, 05:30 PM

Yep, that's a reasonable summary. However, at the Polite Society - I reviewed (blah, blah - I'm a psychologist) - some of the factors that lead us to freeze or not act. Modern FOF training is designed to get us out of such action freezes by giving us experience and schemas for action. So you don't have to figure it out on the spot and then having some rehersal of the action.

That's why Michael's suggestion is one that is good and expedited by practicing such. We actually talked about that.

I wish to repeat the separation of the RKBA aspect and the practical aspect. Folks take offense sometimes at the suggestion that they would not act appropriately. Well, I don't know if I would but when I got into this paradigm, I want at least to give myself the advantage of working it out. We do see freezes and fumbles in training and the real world, some of the time.

TEDDY · May 5, 2009, 10:34 AM

one big plus is if you have the willingness to go into danger.no amount of training will help if you dont have the mind set.I have had the mind set as I did several confrontations,with out having to shoot,or fight.some as shore patrol over seas.and some as civilian.I do know Massa by rep in New Hampshire and respect him.I have gone to Rileys.

Brit · May 5, 2009, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Although check in on Friday looked like the Meeting of the American Vest Manufacturers

First wearers to my knowledge of the photographers vest (other than camera buffs) was the coach drivers in Europe, back in the 80s.

I asked to look at one, it had a hidden pocket, ideal for Passport. I bought one in Italy, I wore it to a IALEFI ATC, a Lawyer on the board said "Going fishing?"

Not too many years later, he was wearing one, they sold them from their Shop!
I think Mr. Ayoob remembers those?

Then the "Operators" picked up on them, on and on, there are detractors, like the detractors of 511 pants who say they scream "GUN!" sure.

My personal feelings on fighting, guns or fists, it helps if you have done some.

How to be as ready as you can be? Dress armed, wear the same weapons in the same place always, carry as much gun as you can. An extra magazine (You know when you will get a malfunction do you?) just in case.

It can not do any harm to shoot an action sport where you use the same gun and holster either. Is IDPA training to fight? Not really, but shooting a few thousand rounds a year, from concealed carry, can't hurt can it?

In Florida we can dress armed easy, all the time, you can tell I am armed quite easily though, I wear 511 pants!

Do you wear a Pistol so you can save the world? No more than than you carry an Insurance card, so that you can get into an accident.
And remember the first rule of a gun fight... Have one!

Kyo · May 6, 2009, 01:36 AM

you mean avoid one?...

Brit · May 6, 2009, 08:16 AM

KYO

That too.

Having a gun, while avoiding one (a gun fight) could be a win-win situation!

FM12 · May 7, 2009, 12:02 AM

First Rulefor an active shooterevent:have agun (sound familar)

Rule2,be practiced and as trained as you can be

Rule 3 Be a winner!

BTW,ThanksMas for visiting with us!

Mas Ayoob · May 9, 2009, 04:56 AM

Ron Borsch of the SEALE Academy (Southeast Area Law Enforcement Academy) in Bedford, Ohio has done some outstanding research on single responders cutting short mass murder incidents, as noted early in this thread.

An interview with him on the topic has now been posted at ProArms Podcasts. These can be downloaded to your computer or iPod at http://proarms.podbean.com, or at iTunes or Zune. The Borsch interview is on Episode 27.

Best wishes to all,
Mas

pax · May 9, 2009, 09:27 AM

Mas, awesome podcast -- and thanks for posting his handout too.

I've just finished reading the most recent (May 2009) Force Science newsletter. It's got a great summary of Borsch's current research into this area, a fascinating read. Worth a look...

http://www.forcescience.org

(The May newsletter doesn't appear to have made it onto the site yet. Give it a day or two maybe -- as I said, definitely worth the read.)

pax

April 29, 2009, 04:24 PM	#26
Tennessee Gentleman Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2005 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,775	Glenn, Not to oversimply your point but it seems in situations like the Tacoma Mall and the Burger King incident one who wishes to use their CCW to stop a BG needs to follow a saying I have heard none other than the famous Michael Bane repeat; "If you are gonna shoot; shoot!" and the implicit "Don't talk about shooting instead". __________________ "God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier.

April 29, 2009, 05:30 PM	#27
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Yep, that's a reasonable summary. However, at the Polite Society - I reviewed (blah, blah - I'm a psychologist) - some of the factors that lead us to freeze or not act. Modern FOF training is designed to get us out of such action freezes by giving us experience and schemas for action. So you don't have to figure it out on the spot and then having some rehersal of the action. That's why Michael's suggestion is one that is good and expedited by practicing such. We actually talked about that. I wish to repeat the separation of the RKBA aspect and the practical aspect. Folks take offense sometimes at the suggestion that they would not act appropriately. Well, I don't know if I would but when I got into this paradigm, I want at least to give myself the advantage of working it out. We do see freezes and fumbles in training and the real world, some of the time. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

May 5, 2009, 10:34 AM	#28
TEDDY Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2006 Location: MANNING SC Posts: 837	tacktics one big plus is if you have the willingness to go into danger.no amount of training will help if you dont have the mind set.I have had the mind set as I did several confrontations,with out having to shoot,or fight.some as shore patrol over seas.and some as civilian.I do know Massa by rep in New Hampshire and respect him.I have gone to Rileys.

May 9, 2009, 09:27 AM	#34
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Mas, awesome podcast -- and thanks for posting his handout too. I've just finished reading the most recent (May 2009) Force Science newsletter. It's got a great summary of Borsch's current research into this area, a fascinating read. Worth a look... http://www.forcescience.org (The May newsletter doesn't appear to have made it onto the site yet. Give it a day or two maybe -- as I said, definitely worth the read.) pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

May 6, 2009, 01:36 AM	#30
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	you mean avoid one?...

May 6, 2009, 08:16 AM	#31
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	KYO That too. Having a gun, while avoiding one (a gun fight) could be a win-win situation!

May 7, 2009, 12:02 AM	#32
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	First Rulefor an active shooterevent:have agun (sound familar) Rule2,be practiced and as trained as you can be Rule 3 Be a winner! BTW,ThanksMas for visiting with us!

May 9, 2009, 04:56 AM	#33
Mas Ayoob Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2005 Posts: 249	Ron Borsch of the SEALE Academy (Southeast Area Law Enforcement Academy) in Bedford, Ohio has done some outstanding research on single responders cutting short mass murder incidents, as noted early in this thread. An interview with him on the topic has now been posted at ProArms Podcasts. These can be downloaded to your computer or iPod at http://proarms.podbean.com, or at iTunes or Zune. The Borsch interview is on Episode 27. Best wishes to all, Mas