SMLE Mk III* info

[olyinaz]

I picked up a made-from-new/refurbished SMLE Mk III* (Australian) at the gun show today (it's lovely, the new coachwood stock from Oz is great) and I was wondering if anyone has any great Lee-Enfield web sites to recommend? Good sources for .303 ammo?

Thanks!

V/R,
Oly

[Tidewater_Kid]

Here's a good reference site to start:

http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/

Enfields are wonderful rifles. I love my five. Ammo is getting harder to find. Most of the surplus is gone now. Prvi is good stuff and still widely available.

TK

[jondar]

gunboards.com has a forum on Lee Enfields. Some really smart Enfield addicts there. I learned a lot about my MK III* on that forum.

[moose fat]

Ok;

http://www.303british.com/
http://www.surplusrifle.com/smle/index.asp
http://home.earthlink.net/~smithkaia8/index.html
http://www.marstar.ca/index.shtm
http://www.milsurps.com/
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearm...firearmsforums
http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/gh.htm
http://ssporters.com/index.html

Search is your friend.

[carguychris]

Enfields are wonderful rifles. I love my five. Ammo is getting harder to find. Most of the surplus is gone now. Privi is good stuff and still widely available.

+1, and I'll add a couple of notes.

First, the only milsurp ammo that's widely available right now is Pakistani "POF"-stamped stuff that's notoriously prone to hangfires and duds. Hangfires don't give me a warm fuzzy feeling. It's also generally pricier than milsurp rifle ammo in other calibers, so it's more difficult to justify using it in place of commercial ammo. I avoid it, but YMMV.

Second, the "Wolf Gold" .303 British ammo is Prvi Partizan, just in a different box. Buy whichever is cheaper.

[SwampYankee]

The other problem with the POV stuff is that it is corrosive and will require you to clean the barrel with soapy water or ammonia in addition to regular cleaning. I have about 1000 rounds of it and only fire it in my beater rifle, an old 1948 Ishapore. It's got a badly pitted throat so I don't mind using the junk ammo. Hang fires can be fun, they teach you not to flinch!

I handload all my .303 these days and only neck-size fire formed cartridges. I get much better accuracy than with the commercial stuff. When I do fire commercial ammo, it is the Prvi Partizan.

[Coomba]

I hear these rifles have an incredible following. I've thought about purchasing one time and again, what should i be looking for if I wanted something historically valuable and also shootable. I ask because I'm not familiar with the Pakistani or Indian production rifles, I have heard that they aren't the best in terms of value, accuracy, production value, etc. I could see how that could be, but then again the British were in India for a long while, surely they're not all crap, right?

[Tikirocker]

I hear these rifles have an incredible following.

Yup ... and then some. The longest serving battle rifle out there with few if any to match it. Try two world wars and dozens of small wars since 1945 including Korea and Malaya ... still found in the hands of Indian and Pakistani Military and Police forces and various insurgents in the Mid East and Taliban in the Ghan. The Afghans inflicted plenty of damage sniping against the Soviets with Enfield SMLE's.

Go to the Enfield forum link in my sig if you want the real heads up on these rifles from people who know them and shoot them.

I have heard that they aren't the best in terms of value, accuracy, production value, etc.

Complete garbage ... talk to owner shooters who are knowledgeable collectors and you will learn different. Funny how that goes.

... surely they're not all crap, right?

Of course not ... what most people are speaking to is examples that have often seen use in countless wars and then post WW2 3rd party Military and para military use - then to be sold to commercial market and further flogged and fired for 30 years with the same barrel and a complete lack of knowledgeable servicing, tuning or accurizing!

Yes, some rifles are flogged ... you are talking about wear and usage here, NOT a standard of factory production. A good condition Enfield is capable of accuracy most shooters aren't good enough to keep standard to. Most people have little or no idea how to tune or accurize the Enfield and assume that what they've got is all the rifle is capable of - after ALL it has seen and been through. This ignores every potential the rifle has and had when new from factory - the shooter is ignorant, the rifle is excellent.

Tiki.

[carguychris]

Complete garbage ... talk to owner shooters who are knowledgeable collectors and you will learn different. Funny how that goes.

+1. IMHO this Enfield-inferiority hogwash most often comes from 2 sources:

1) Ignorant and blatant Mauser and/or Garand snobbery, often from people who have never actually used a Lee-Enfield.

2) The old guy on the stool at the gun store. See, he bought a Lee-Enfield out of a 55-gallon drum at Joe Bob's Hardware in Doodlebug Valley, AR in 1958 and it wouldn't shoot worth a darn. Never mind that it was shot-out to begin with, that he seldom cleaned it, and that he used the butt to hammer tent stakes on his hunting trips. All Lee-Enfields must be junk!

[Flipper 56]

I have a 1943 Lithgow and a U.S Gov't from the Lend Lease Act
Luv 'em both! Don't listen to the Non-believers

[James K]

As you can see, the Lee-Enfield has gone from a quite decent battle rifle to an object of adoration. I have five, and I liked them better when they were just guns I could actually shoot without bowing down and sprinkling them with holy water from the Thames.

Jim

[SwampYankee]

...surely they're not all crap, right?

I think he meant the Ishapores in general. Obviously a British, Canadian, Australian or American Enfield is far from crap. The Ishapores don't have as good a reputation but I am not exactly sure why. They were built on British equipment and manufacture was supervised by the British, correct? I would guess that they are more prone to corrosive pitting, being toted around the jungle for 50 years. With any Enfield, making sure the bore is good is critical. Aside from that, just about any other part can be replaced or repaired.

[Tikirocker]

I think he meant the Ishapores in general.

The same goes for Ishapores ... there are many happy Ishapore owners over at the Enfield forum at Suprlusrifleforum.com ... do a search or talk to them. They aren't as pretty as the Australian, British, Canadian and U.S made rifles but they are great shooters in good condition and are very reliable.

Tiki.

[olyinaz]

Thanks much for the links and the info guys. I had a gunsmith look over mine today before taking it out to shoot and with a clean bill of health I'm really looking forward to shooting it. I'm not at all pleased that the only ammo I can find for it thus far is Remington 180gr round nose soft point hunting ammo for $30 a box (sheesh...) but I'm sure I'll eventually find some new Russian or other manufacture that will suffice for less than that. In the mean time it's good to see that my local Big 5 intends to stock .303 as a normal shelf item.

Cheers,
Oly

[Tikirocker]

Oly,

Russian ammo is not interchangeable with .303 British. You may still need to tune and accurize your rifle - if it a Lithgow then I can vouch for that fact. I shoot out of the Lithgow Small Arms Rifle club where these rifles were factory built and tested.

Tiki.

[Flipper 56]

Jim Keenan wrote

As you can see, the Lee-Enfield has gone from a quite decent battle rifle to an object of adoration. I have five, and I liked them better when they were just guns I could actually shoot without bowing down and sprinkling them with holy water from the Thames.

While I do not consider my two to be "just guns" I don't keep them in a Museum case or Shrine either. I took a doe a few years ago with my Lend-Lease Enfield, actually a No. 4 Mk I*. It's a quite decent hunting rifle as well as a "quite decent battle rifle".

[jondar]

I've never owned a No. 4, only a MK III*, but stopped at the gunsmith's shop yesterday and while there noticed a rack of No. 4's, six or seven, and commented to the owner what great shape they appeared to be in, almost like new. He said they were Savages. I picked one up and it was NRA Excellent overall. Then I looked at the price tag, $279.95. Prices have sure gone up on these. Beautiful, beautiful rifles tho.

[Coomba]

Why couldn't you guys just tell me they were crap? Now I'm going to have to get one... or two... wait how many variants are there? Damn.

[BobbyT]

Do you guys know much about the .308 conversions? Solid jobs, or crap?

I respect the classic rifles, but don't really care about having a pristine piece of history, so I'd love to have an SMLE that could shoot the cheaper and more easily attainable .308 (blasphemy or not).

[jondar]

I've kicked it around once or twice on some of the other forums. Can't say on the No 4's, but I believe the working pressure for the No1 Mk III*'s run about 42,000 cup. The .308 rounds are in excess of that, I'm working from memory but I believe about 52,000 cups. The other posters seemed to think that it wasn't a big deal. I wouldn't convert my Mk III*, maybe it would stand up to the greater pressure but the .303 does anything I want it to do and am happy with it. Some others here may have a different viewpoint.

[MR.MILSURP]

good thread but worth reviving-the No.4 Mk.1 is stronger than the No.1 Mk.III

yes, there was a 308 conversion kit available in the UK back in the 1960's, for the No.4 and No.5

the SMLE rifles have a fast, short throw bolt, and large 10 round clip, but from the strength/accuracy standpoint, leave much to be desired.

1. the stock is 2 piece, not conducive to accuracy- at one time there were custom 1-piece SMLE stocks available, that covered the steel butt socket- but that was a long time ago 1960's.

2. the fore end is a loose fit on the barreled action, you can grab the barrel and move it all around in the stock- a complete 'glas bedding is required, otherwise the guns suffer from a "wandering zero"- will shoot high to the left progressively more, as the barrel gets hots and moves

3. the bolt is a rear locking lug design, similar to a Remington 788, or lever action Winchester, Marlin, Savage- it is weaker than the Mauser front locking design. The top locking lug on an SMLE actually locks into the rear receiver bridge area-this design is prone to bolt and locking lug compression with successive firings, creating excessive headspace. This is why No. 4 guns had (4) different bolt heads to adjust headspace, numbered 0-1-2-3. A Mauser locks into the receiver ring collar and is much stronger. SMLE chambers are also on the loose side, actually very sloppy.

4. The SMLE is an ancient design, Lee originally started the prototype in 1879. By 1910 the Brits were already considering a Mauser type action to replace it, which led to the Enfield Pattern 14 and Pattern 17 rifles. They stayed with the SMLE because it got the job done, and they were already tooled up for it.

5. the 303 is a rimmed cartridge, an 1800's headspacing method which is generally inferior to a nonrimmed cartridge that headspaces on the shoulder angle, like the 30-06 family

the best you could do with an SMLE is 'glas bed the fore end, and have the barrel turned back 1-2 threads, then rechambered so the chamber is tight clearance on the shell. Start with a "0" bolt head, so you can adjust in the future with the "1-2-3" bolt heads, .006" at a time as the headspace opens up over time. Have the muzzle recrowned. If you are crafty enough, make a new one piece stock- find a vintage one piece stock- or buy an aftermarket synthetic 2-piece stock. Another possibility is rechamber it to 244, 257, or 264 wildcat on the 303 case. The 24-25-26 cal. wildcats would pick up some free velocity due to the lighter bullet weight, and flatten the trajectory.

The SMLE shares the same limitations as the Remington 788 with its rear locking lugs. Not as strong as a front locking bolt, but not quite as weak as a lever action w/rear locking bolt/breech. Let's face it, the 303 cartridge and SMLE action is an ancient design from the 1800's blackpowder era.

having said all this, I own 3 of them, and like the guns. there's much to be said for the 10 round removable magazine and high rate of fire- under 200 yards they worked as good, or better, than any. They are not a 500-1000 yard sniper rifle platform, not without a LOT of work.

[kilimanjaro]

.303 is a perfectly good hunting round. Sellier&Bellot put out good commercial loads for about $15 a box. The Prvi Partisan is great. If you find Hansen ammo at a show for a good price, buy it, it's really Prvi Partisan.

The .303 went out of service a while ago, most of the surplus ammo is not really worth it, in my opinion. The last batch I saw that I would buy was South African from the 1960's and that was years ago.

Friend of mine loads my .303 now, I bought the dies and everything else, he does the rest, if you can find a buddy with a press, try that route.

[gyvel]

Russian ammo is not interchangeable with .303 British.

I think he may have been referring to some of the .303 ammo that is manufactured in Serbia. (Prvi Partizan.) Apparently, they have just entered into a business agreement with the Russian "Wolf" ammo company.

[gyvel]

Do you guys know much about the .308 conversions? Solid jobs, or crap?

I respect the classic rifles, but don't really care about having a pristine piece of history, so I'd love to have an SMLE that could shoot the cheaper and more easily attainable .308 (blasphemy or not).

The only No. 1 Mk III based rifles in .308 are the Ishapore produced 2A and 2A1 rifles. The Indians dealt with the increased pressures of the 7.62 NATO standard round by manufacturing new receivers from a much higher grade of steel than that used on the old British and Australian made guns. It's still not recommended to shoot higher pressure commercial .308 sporting ammo in them, however. The Ishapore made rifles are still available at reasonable prices, and my experience with them (I have several) is that they are quite accurate if they have good bores.

The No. 4 rifles are a different matter however; Many were converted by the British to 7.62 NATO and placed into reserve stores. The No. 4 also served to be converted into excellent target rifles and was actually the last of the Lee-Enfields to serve in the British military in the role of the L42 sniper rifle. It was declared obsolescent in 1992. Unlike the Indian made 2As, however, they have become ungodly expensve.

To be honest, the only surplus .308 on the market right now seems to be POF Pakistani garbage, while quality .303 is more or less readily available.

[SwampYankee]

To be honest, the only surplus .308 on the market right now seems to POF Pakistani garbage, while quality .303 is more or less readily available.

You meant the opposite right? Garbage POF .303?