Cleaning your rifle between groups

[T-CAIN]

In the past when I am going to my range to try out a new load I start with a clean bore, shoot one fouling shot, then shoot my three round group. Then I start all over again, clean it, fouling shot, then my three round group. Does this seem like a good way to do it. It's just kind of my self tought method I was wondering if anyone had any input on this system.
Thank you.


"When firearms go, all go. We need them every hour" George Washington

[oneoldsap]

Most Bores shoot better when lightly fouled , too much cleaning can be harmful if not done properly ! Try shooting it 20-30-40 times between cleanings and see what your groups do , you might be surprised !

[603Country]

It all depends on the rifle. Generally, I'll shoot 10 or 15 rounds and then clean the barrel. Most of my rifles shoot best when the barrel is clean or lightly fouled (10 rounds or so). My Ruger Hawkeye is the exception. From a clean barrel, the first 4 or 5 rounds seem to dirty it up just enough for it to shoot its best.

[5RWill]

Shoot it and clean it don't go back and forth. Most of the time your going to take a precision shot with a fouled bore. Or that's the way I look at it. If your lucky and your rifle's POI doesn't change much with a clean or cold bore shot your a lucky guy. Same goes for "breaking in" a barrel shoot the hell out of it and then clean it after it has a good bit of fouling. Gale mcmillian talks about cleaning and barrel break in. All in all you want to continue shooting your groups with a fouled bore, not cleaning after every group, or i would think, unless your a guy who likes his bore spot less and wants to take a clean/cold bore shot everytime.

[Old Grump]

If you are shooting to find the best load for that gun then you are doing good. If you are shooting to zero a gun for hunting then you want to shoot the way you take the gun out in the field. I go out with a clean gun so my gun is zeroed for the first 3 shots out of a cold clean barrel. In a hunting situation I wouldn't be shooting 10 shot groups at my game unless I am shooting prairie dogs or squirrels. and a small bore isn't as sensitive to heating like my 30 caliber hunting rifles.

So the answer is depends on what your goal is. Seriously I wouldn't clean quite so often unless you are shooting a benchrest gun and looking for one hole groups at 200 yards. Cooling the barrel between different loads should be sufficient.

[5RWill]

http://www.6mmbr.com/gailmcmbreakin.html
The article is mainly about break in which your not doing but it is in somewhat sort of around the same process.
Even in benchrest you would shoot with the bore fouled i would think, I could be wrong but i couldn't see shooting benchrest with a clean bore. Then again they're a ticky bunch so i'm not positive.

[T-CAIN]

Thank you all for the replies. Mainly I have been shooting my test loads in this order becuase I figured in a hunting situation my rifle would be clean when I leave, so I would shoot one or two fouling shots, then begin to hunt. So at the bench I would foul it, shoot it, then clean it and repeat. But I guess a fouled barrel is a fouled barrel, whether its one shot or thirty. Do you guys agree with that? It would save me a lot of time and work at the bench.

[5RWill]

Depends on the person really. Some people don't clean until they start to see accuracy diminish due too excessive fouling. Others clean after every shooting. I usually clean after a weekend of shooting, 25-100rds. I've read some people only cleaning every 400-500rds depending on the rifle. I've never left my rifle that fouled because by then everything is super dirty, all inside the action and all. So i moderately clean my rifle.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I shoot Benchmark at max loads in my 204. It is remarkably clean. I used to clean the gun (barrel) every time I shot it when I used factory ammo. Problem was, the first shot was never very accurate and my first shots are usually at a living critter. With Benchmark, the bore stays remarkably clean. All the gun gets is a quick wipe down with Eezox after use. I have fired over 100 rounds without cleaning the bore and have noticed no accuracy problems whatsoever. The other day I shot at 410 yards and was under 4 inches.

I have read, and come to believe, that I am more likely to cause problems by over-cleaning than under. I will clean the bore when (if) I experience accuracy issues. Frankly, I don't expect any. I'm pretty confident that you only get a certain amount of residue and after that the amount deposited on each shot equals the amount blasted out the muzzle.

[5RWill]

Originally Posted by Peetzakilla

I have read, and come to believe, that I am more likely to cause problems by over-cleaning than under. I will clean the bore when (if) I experience accuracy issues. Frankly, I don't expect any. I'm pretty confident that you only get a certain amount of residue and after that the amount deposited on each shot equals the amount blasted out the muzzle.

+1 I completely agree, I probably clean more than i should though.

[Unclenick]

I think McMillan's point about dull throating sections in reamers is salient. It points out different barrels may need to be treated differently. I've always assumed that cut rifled barrels that were not hand lapped could benefit some from burnishing by break-in shots, but I've never figured out why graduating from cleaning after every shot to cleaning every three then every five would be better than just cleaning every shot for a smaller number of rounds. After all, if you are burnishing, you want to expose the most catchy part of the surface to the next bullet every time, right? Otherwise, you are leaving that spot partly protected from burnishing by the next round. Maybe what Gail McMillan suggested is right, this just makes you buy barrels more frequently. Or maybe it's just an idea that's got gut level appeal and won't go away. But I can't make technical sense of it.

I've got one example of an interesting break-in angle: Howa recommends just a 10 shot break-in. It isn't about accuracy with them. Their procedure is to "seal" the bore surface without trapping carbon in it and to prevent the gun from walking as it heats up. The former is presumably for easier cleaning, but they don't say so. The latter claim was a new one on me when I first read about their method, but their steel quality is exceptional so I assume they know something about it's behavior and their claims should not be dismissed out of hand.

The way Howa wants their barrels broken in is to start by using window (glass) cleaner before doing any shooting to get all traces of oil and rust inhibitors out of the new bore. This is because hydrocarbons burn to leave carbon behind, and they want to try to condition the surface without trapping carbon in it. After each of the 10 shots, they have you clean with a copper removing bore cleaner, followed by more window cleaner to remove any hydrocarbons left behind by the bore cleaner.

Howa doesn't want abrasive cleaners used as they claim that keeps the surface "agitated" and doesn't let it settle. Gail McMillan would agree with avoiding abrasives, other authorities would not. What I find interesting about it is the implication that a bore touched by abrasives should be treated as a new surface and resealed. It the sealing has a significant effect, then that would make sense.

Howa also wants the shooter to wait at least 5 minutes between each of these initial 10 shots to let the gun cool pretty pretty completely. They claim that letting it return to cold shape between these initial shots allows the firing stresses to fix some sort of position memory in the new steel. They claim failure to follow this shooting and cooling procedure for the 10 shots can result in a barrel that walks as it heats. They claim they've seen many barrels ruined by firing them without following that procedure, and presumably they believe their procedure will prevent it from happening.

I assume, being commercial rifle barrels, that they are not stress relieving their blanks. I also don't know if they are hammer forged or button rifled, either of which can stress the steel a good bit, and therefore I don't know if that stress being present isn't a requirement for their break-in method to make a difference? Again, maybe, maybe. Different barrels, different needs?

Howa makes no mention of whether or not a walking barrel can be "healed" by this procedure, so I don't know if it applies only to new steel? It is certainly the case that cryo-treating, which affects grain structure, can mitigate or even stop heat walking in a barrel that already does it, so perhaps there is some setting effect on initial grain structure due to initial firing? I've not yet tried the experiment myself, but will.

It seems unlikely a properly stress-relieved custom barrel will have the walking issues whether you fire its first 10 shots that way or not. The Howa approach, though, certainly won't consume barrel life to any significant degree, so why not? It would, as was pointed out earlier, be a good idea to know where your cold, clean barrel shoots anyway and to use those 10 rounds to set your sights for that. For one thing, that information will be useful for finding out later how much fouling affects your POI.

When I took a Gunsite tactical rifle class taught by snipers (one former Marine Scout Sniper currently working for a different part of government, and one a police SWAT sniper), they had us clean every ten rounds. That's how they'd been trained, and I think the notion was that sniping rarely calls for firing many rounds without cleaning. One thing I took away form that is that it is a good idea to keep current on bore cleaning chemistry because cleaner that don't require you to use a brush or an abrasive are increasingly common.

These days I mostly use Boretech Eliminator. I pull the bolt and put a bore guide in. I then push patches wet with Eliminator through thirty seconds to one minute apart (depending on mood; that part's not scientific) with a plastic jag on a coated rod that doesn't turn the Eliminator blue. I repeat until they come out clean. It doesn't take long. I may try window cleaner, too, but I expect a blast of Bore Scrubber probably removes any residual hydrocarbons better. Eliminator is water-based, but it does have corrosion inhibitors, and those may be water miscible oil that should be got out for the Howa approach.

The foam cleaners are also very good. I notice Sharp Shoot'R, maker of the Wipe Out foam cleaner and an accelerator for it, now also has a carbon cleaner that I bet is good as a separate treatment.

[amamnn]

I'm guessing from what the original poster has said that we are talking about a factory barrel on a hunting/plinking rifle. It has been my experience that some fouling in such a barrel/chamber/throat can be helpful--and it may not be. One has to shoot the barrel a few times to get to know it. Whether a custom la-de-da match barrel or one from the factory --this is for sure:


If you start with a clean barrel you know where you are. If you don't - then you can never be sure. City boys who go out hunting may not have the opportunity (they think) to foul a couple of shots before zooming out to the hunt site getting on the quadrunner and climbing their tree by the planted deer forage and maybe that's why they---nevermind..............


P.S. These days, the serious shooter will have examined the barrel with his borescope and have an idea of what to expect................

[5RWill]

Also love Boretech Eliminator i went from hoppes No. 9 to Boretech and i went from using around 30 patches to about 15 now. Just doesn't take much time at all. I've read great stuff about the foam cleaners also.

All in all a processes like these we're discussing for the serious shooter comes down to personal preference. There are thousands of shooters that do the break in method clean after every shot or every three shots and the whole works. There are thousands like me that don't believe in doing all that, not for a custom hand lapped barrel anyway. As Nick said for a factory barrel it actual may require so many rounds to burn out the burrs or whatever you decide to call them.

[Nevmavrick]

The main trick is to find out what the RIFLE wants, not someone that hasn't even seen the rifle.
I like to pick a load that SHOULD work, accuracy-wise, and clean the barrel. Then, shoot a group-prolly 5-shot, then maybe three groups of the test loads, letting the barrel cool some between groups. THEN, the origional load, compare to the first group. THEN, say, three more test groups. These would be done on the first day only, but it would tell me about how much the barrel will take to fouling before the accuracy starts failing. Lots would depend on what kind of rifle it is...heavy-sporter Varmint, medium sporter, lightweight Magnum, etc.
Ie, 20 groups out of a lightweight .300 or .338 Magnum gets old fast!!LOL.
The rifle will tell you what it wants.
I do agree, tho'; more problems are are caused by cleaning than shooting.
Hoppe's #9 is great stuff for getting SWMBO to let you clean your guns in the house...doesn't do much for the barrel. tho'. I always have some around to clean the powder residue, but the copper streaks needs something else to get 'em out.
Have fun,
Gene

[A_Gamehog]

If I change powders during a test session working up loads. I clean and shoot 2-3 fowlers with the same powder.

I found this a long time ago. Some very interesting remarks by Industry leaders Gale McMillan and others in the "Barrels" section of this link.

Check out the .223 loads by "Ed Harris", smart guy.


http://yarchive.net/gun/index.html

[TheNatureBoy]

When I go to the range I usually take at least 2-3 rifles. I handload and use RE-22 in my 7mm. Its a dirty powder and if I cleaned after every 10-15 rounds I'd be at the range all day. Usually I clean barrels a day or so after I get back home regardless of how many rounds I fired.

[farmerboy]

I like to start out with prob. 5-7 rounds shot for fouling shots. Then after barrel cooled it's time to shoot for groupings. Do same for hunting rifles. Find preferred round and sight In then don't clean until after season. Most people only shoot about 20 shots during rifle season unless it gets wet then I clean it and shoot fouling shots before going hunting again.

[FrankenMauser]

My M77 MkII .270 Winchester slings projectiles in about an 5" group (and way off POA / standard POI), for the first 2-5 shots out of a "pristine" bore. But once the copper is redeposited in the bore, it settles back down.

My solution, and testing method...?
I leave it dirty, and don't ever use copper solvents in that bore. I use Hoppes #9 for bore cleaning, with some brush work, and use dry patches to fully dry the bore before storage or firing. That's it. I take it back out, fire one fouling shot, and it's good to go - no "settling in". Its stainless barrel seems to need the copper deposits (a concept Shilen eludes to in one of their online articles).

My Marlin XL7, on the other hand....
will print 1" or smaller groups (100 yds) with each shot fired from a "pristine" bore, and never takes more than 2 fouling shots to be right back in the game (.5" or smaller groups). I scrubbed it with copper solvents about 80 rounds ago, and probably won't do it again for another 40-60 rounds.

Each rifle I own has a different set of preferences, and can also be held to a different set of standards (depending on their usage and reliability/repeatability requirements).

As Amamnn said:

Originally Posted by amamnn

One has to shoot the barrel a few times to get to know it.

You just have to figure out what your particular rifle likes/needs.

Me? ... I generally don't clean at all, during load development. I make sure the bore is thoroughly dirty, before I start; and don't clean it until I have decided on a load.
I have found dirty performance to be more predictable, in general, than clean performance.