Lionheart LH9: Some Impressions and a Question

[TunnelRat]

Hi all,
Got done shooting today and on a whim I drove by a lgs. To my great surprise a salesman was showing off a LH9 to a customer. Haven't seen one yet in the New England area, was very surprised. I managed to snag it away for a minute or two and here are some initial impressions.

The gun seems very well made, easily as well made as say a 3rd Gen S&W and to me that's a good compliment. The finish seemed very nice and the fit was excellent. Slide was like butter. The grip was a bit thick, but not more so than say a SIG. In fact the grip length was very similar to a P228, but with a lower bore axis. The grip texture was nice and grippy but I see how it might annoy some folks (I like stippling and G10 grips). It's surprisingly light for an alloy gun, think lighter than a P228. That really surprised me. The trigger was nice as well. Decent reset. The DA pull was long and to me heavier than the advertised 10 lbs.

Now on to the Double Action Plus as Lionheart calls it. Folks can look it up for detailed explanation, but in short it's very similar to a Walther P99 AS mode (or the other way around). By cocking the hammer, manually or racking the slide, the user can push the hammer forward. When the trigger is then pulled the length of the pull is similar to DA but the pull weight is more like SA (hammer is pre-cocked as it were). Many folks compare it to a 2-stage trigger, but it's a bit different. At a certain point in the trigger pull the trigger snaps back as the hammer snaps back into SA mode. While you're traveling that full DA distance, a lot of it is very abbreviated due to this spring action. I can see why folks would like this if they don't like long heavy trigger pulls (though why you're buying a DA/SA pistol then is beyond me). I find the snapping back of the trigger to the SA point a bit disconcerting. I can see how it might interrupt the sight picture a tad. I imagine with training it wouldn't be an issue, but I also imagine some time to adjust from typical DA would be required.

My bigger issue is the idea of carrying in Douple Action Plus concealed. Nutnfancy (I know he's not the most liked and I often roll my eyes too, but every once in a while he is right) touched upon this in his review and I agree to an extent. When that hammer is moved back forward into the DA+ mode, it takes very little effort to re-cock the hammer. I mean very little. My imagination can visualize a situation where the hammer gets snagged, even slightly, on clothing or what not if drawing from concealment and the hammer is cocked. Now the trigger is truly SA and the possibility of a negligent discharge goes up. Keep your booger hook off the bangswitch and all that, but this is noticeably different than traditional DA autos or even the Walther P99 AS mode. If the pistol also had a dedicated decocker I'd say to heck with it, but it doesn't. You'd have to lower the hammer manually. I carry hammer guns and I've never had a major snag on the draw, so a part of me says it won't be an issue at all. But again, it takes dramatically less effort to cock the pistol than say a traditional DA auto.

Has anyone else noticed the ease to recock into SA when in DA+, and has anyone had experience carrying this pistol concealed? Lionheart seems to be doing a good job marketing this pistol and I hope it's successful as I think it is a nice gun.

-TR

[Kevin_d77]

MAC did a review of his and he liked it so much, it replaced his Glock 19 for his EDC. I like mine but haven't tried carrying it or shot it enough to give a very good opinion. From what I have, I really like the design of the gun itself and the DA+ (along with $420 price tag) were the reason I got it.

[TunnelRat]

That price is no longer available. The current price is about $600.

I also like the gun overall, but my concerns remain.

[4thPoint]

Doesn't it have an ambidextrous safety? And wouldn't carrying with the safety ON completely eliminate the problem just like it would for a traditional single-action pistol?

South Korea has been issuing the K5 (aka DP51 and the 'parent' of the LH9) for over two decades now, if there were a problem with it, you'd think it would have shown up by now.

Why would you want to uncock the pistol, because it has a hammer? Do people go around decocking striker fired pistols that often? If you need to uncock it, release the magazine, rack the slide, inspect, and pull trigger. voila all done.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by 4thPoint

Doesn't it have an ambidextrous safety? And wouldn't carrying with the safety ON completely eliminate the problem just like it would for a traditional single-action pistol?

South Korea has been issuing the K5 (aka DP51 and the 'parent' of the LH9) for over two decades now, if there were a problem with it, you'd think it would have shown up by now.

Why would you want to uncock the pistol, because it has a hammer? Do people go around decocking striker fired pistols that often? If you need to uncock it, release the magazine, rack the slide, inspect, and pull trigger. voila all done.

Lol what? Decocking a DA/SA pistol is very common and most of them have dedicated decockers.

As for the South Korean army, I am not sure they are carrying concealed.

[DannyB1954]

I looked at one and liked it, but the $600 for a Korean gun gave me pause. So it is nice piece, but I don't think the value is there. For that kind of money, I think I would rather have a Walther PPQ or P99C as.

[Officer's Match]

When in SA mode and hammer pushed forward, how does the trigger pull compare to a LEM HK's? Is there an actual DA mode? I'm guessing the only way to experience it is to manually (with a trigger pull) lower the hammer with a live round.

[hemiram]

I had a DP51, and I liked it, I had no issues with it. I only sold it because I needed the cash. The Lionheart is on my list of future guns to buy. I have no problem with action, it's 20 years old and long proven by this point in time.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Officer's Match

When in SA mode and hammer pushed forward, how does the trigger pull compare to a LEM HK's? Is there an actual DA mode? I'm guessing the only way to experience it is to manually (with a trigger pull) lower the hammer with a live round.

It is quite different from LEM. It is lighter than the standard LEM and again when it snaps back into SA that is different as with LEM you have to keep pulling all the way through to get to the rear position. The concept is similar though.

Yes you have to thumb the hammer down, which to me is a downside. Given that I would carry it in DA+.

[Fishbed77]

My bigger issue is the idea of carrying in Douple Action Plus concealed. Nutnfancy (I know he's not the most liked and I often roll my eyes too, but every once in a while he is right) touched upon this in his review and I agree to an extent. When that hammer is moved back forward into the DA+ mode, it takes very little effort to re-cock the hammer.

I think this is where the P99AS "Anti-Stress" trigger system and the DP-51 "Douple Action Plus" system really start to diverge (other than the fact that one is striker-fired and the other is hammer-fired).

The Walther Anti-Stress trigger was explicitly designed as a way to safely have a light first trigger pull that is subsequently followed by trigger pulls of the same weight (thus eliminating one of the traditional complaints of DA/SA systems - inconsistent trigger pulls). And it will do this while safely carried, since the first trigger pull, while light, is just as long as a de-cocked double-action pull. Since the standard single-action pull of the P99 is so short, the trigger actually has to move a good distance on the first Anti-Stress pull to re-engage a normal single-action pull, and when it does, there is an audible and tactile click. A good holster means this can practically never happen inadvertently.

The P99AS also has a hinged Glock-style safety in the trigger face as an additional safety measure (though it doesn't look like a Glock safety, as the Walther safety piece comprises the whole face of the trigger rather than just a blade sticking out). This is something the DP-51/LH9 does not have.

Of course, the funny thing is, that while European P99 manuals and early US P99 manuals indicate the AS mode is safe for carry (and it was clearly designed as such), the later US manuals (under S&W importation) say traditional decocked is the only safe carry system. This is obviously a dumbing-down for the sake of litigious lawyers in the US.

[TunnelRat]

I think this is where the P99AS "Anti-Stress" trigger system and the DP-51 "Douple Action Plus" system really start to diverge (other than the fact that one is striker-fired and the other is hammer-fired).

I'm inclined to agree. To me the Walther approach is superior. There isn't the springing of the trigger that makes the pull that much shorter and also is a bit disruptive to the trigger pull. Perhaps most importantly, there is no external hammer that can get snagged and cocked. Again I haven't had an opportunity to carry the pistol, so it's just speculation.

I'm not trying to bad mouth the gun. To me the construction is very impressive and might be worth owning on that merit alone. If it was a nightstand gun or a home defense gun, my concerns really wouldn't be worth noting. But most of the pistols I own can be used for carry if need be, and I have some concerns with this one. Maybe Lionheart can send me a T&E gun?

[Walt Sherrill]

Then, too, if you like the Lionheart/Daewoo gun but don't like the HINGED HAMMER, you can simply carry the gun hammer down, or cocked and locked like any other SA gun. You're NOT forced to use the other trigger/hammer mode.. And you can CERTAINLY use the safety in all three modes, if you like!

I used my DP-51 and DH-40 in IDPA matches for a while, and found the trigger mechanism easy to use. While it IS easy to move from "cocked/hammer down" to "ready to fire" (which is the equivalent of the cocked in a SA gun with the safety OFF), it wasn't any more easy to touch of a round unintentionally than a striker-fired gun, like a Glock 34 which has a moderately lighter trigger. It was a very noticeable transition, and nothing something you'd likely do by accident.

Nobody has talked about HOW LIGHT or HOW HEAVY the Lionheart/DaeWoo SA trigger might be... Everyone's straining at the theoretical issues but aren't talking about the practical ones: what's the actual trigger weight in SA mode? It wasn't terribly light on my DP51(s) and DH40, but it was pretty crisp and clean. (I have a SIG P226 X-Five in .40 that has a SA trigger weight of 5 lbs+. While I don't advocate doing so, I think you could safely carry that gun cocked and UNLOCKED if you had to. )

[TunnelRat]

Then, too, if you like the Lionheart/Daewoo gun but don't like the HINGED HAMMER, you can simply carry the gun hammer down, or cocked and locked like any other SA gun. You're NOT forced to use the other trigger/hammer mode.. And you can CERTAINLY use the safety in all three modes, if you like!

Those are good points that I can't deny. For me I would want a dedicated decocker. Can you manually thumb down the hammer? Sure. Would I prefer not to? Yes. As for safeties, I take the Yoda approach and choose not to take them as I don't personally need them.

My point is just to bring up some of my concerns. You're points show that depending on the person those concerns can be addressed.

[RickB]

I'd never carry a gun with the hammer down, if it had cocked 'n' locked capability.
I've put a few rounds (two mags) through a LH9, and did not really care for the DA+ feature. I was trying to stage the hammer, rather than pulling the trigger through, and it was still weird to see the hammer snap back to full cock; visually distracting, more than anything else, I suppose.
I consider SA autos to be the highest level of development in auto pistol design, and un-automating the action via DA triggers, cockers, decockers, just makes for a system that's more complex - mechanically and functionally - than necessary.

[915A]

I just handled one at my LGS today. It was the railed version. Felt great in my hand, but then I made the mistake of picking up the M11-A1 next to it I think the LH9 would be a good option, just not at 600+

[PSP]

Curious as to what you see that makes the M11-A1 a better deal at $200 more than the Lionheart? They seem more similar than different.

[TunnelRat]

From the Lionheart I handled I think $600 is honestly fair, though I think if they could get it near $550 it would sell a lot more.

[915A]

Originally Posted by PSP

Curious as to what you see that makes the M11-A1 a better deal at $200 more than the Lionheart? They seem more similar than different.

IMO it just felt better to me. I'm not saying the LH9 is any better or worse, but if I was in the market for the options, money, and Sig reliability I'd choose that over a fairly newcomer to the industry. And yes Sig has put out duds too, but that is why it is my opinion.

[Kevin_d77]

At $419 it was a no-brainer and a steal IMHO

[halfwatt]

I love reading these post about the Daewoo Dh 40. I have one and love it.
Finding mags is the biggest issue with them. And that is mostly what I read about them in here.