9mm die sizing too small?

happymachinist · April 22, 2014, 11:43 AM

I'm new to reloading and I've thus far only reloaded 40 S&W and 45 ACP. This morning I began to size some 9mm Luger.

While FL sizing I noticed quite a bit more resistance than either the 40 and 45 I've done. (Did about 30 cases various stamp.)

The reloading manuals I have, state their dimensions at max are .381 (case mouth) mine are coming out .373-.374 OD at the case mouth. Does that sound about right?

Case ID at the mouth is .350 +/-.002 (caliper accurate). This sounds kind of tight but like I said I'm new, just want to double check before potentially screwing up anymore cases.

Also the ID of the carbide ring on my die measures .372, again caliper accuracy applies.

I guess I also should note I am using Lee dies, tried calling Lee but got the busy tone so I thought I'd check here in the meantime.

riche · April 22, 2014, 12:24 PM

Let me see if I can help, The bullet dia. for 9mm parabellum should be around .355, so your .350+/-.002 sounds about right. What you need to do is bell the mouth of your cases just enough so the bullet just fits inside the case neck but don't over do it, then when you seat the bullet the rest of the way you'll have plenty of tension to grip the bullet. Hope this helps, perhaps I didn't understand your question if my help was no help at all.

happymachinist · April 22, 2014, 01:38 PM

Yeah my main concern was too much tension on the bullet. I generalized my ID tolerance as best I could at .350+/-.002. Some cases are at .348 which would put me at a .007 press which sounded a bit excessive, even after i bell out the case mouth to start the bullet, but like I said I'm a novice.

I would imagine the most watched/inspected dimension(s) would be the carbide sizing ring as that's the heart of the die but mistakes do happen just wanted to run my numbers passed you guys that have been doing this longer to make sure my die wasn't undersized or I wasn't making an obvious mistake.

The big red flag to me was it took considerably more force to size these 9mm than the other "straight" walled cases I've done.

Jim Watson · April 22, 2014, 01:56 PM

It takes more force because 9mm is tapered and rather thick walled.
A LIGHT spritz of case lube will help considerably. Use little enough and you won't have to clean it off after loading.

I LIKE my 9mm bullets to be a press fit. I am happiest when I see a "coke bottle" effect with a noticeable waist under the base of the bullet. That holds the bullet against setback.
If I were shooting bullseye or PPC with an emphasis on 50 yard accuracy, I would want a sizing die matched to my lot of brass and my chamber; just enough tension to prevent setback and encourage powder ignition. But I don't, so I want a good stout cartridge.

jag2 · April 22, 2014, 03:13 PM

Like a lot of newbies, you are way over thinking it. As mentioned, 9mm is not a straight wall case, I think it requires more effort to size than any other pistol round I load. A little spray case lube really does help. When you FL size do as little as possible, you don't need to run the whole case in the die. Do as much as necessary to make the case chamber, that is all you need. Its easier if you remove the barrel from your gun so you can keep checking as you adjust your die. With your expander die, again do as little as necessary. I doubt I have ever measured the ID. You expand just enough to be able to get the bullet started, that is all. You don't need your calipers for this. They are helpful to set the OAL and that's about it. You are trying to create the "perfect" round, there is no such thing. Many factory rounds will vary from brand to brand. What you are trying to produce is a round that will feed reliably in your pistol and be accurate. What works best in your gun may not be ideal for mine. Just keep at it and it will start to make sense after a while.

hartcreek · April 22, 2014, 03:30 PM

Another thing that you did not consider is Glock bulge which is when the brass was previously shot in a firearm that does not have a fully supported chamber.

When working range brass you can tell without looking the difference is pressure required is dramatic.

243winxb · April 22, 2014, 07:13 PM

Quote:

mine are coming out .373-.374 OD at the case mouth. Does that sound about right?

Yes. The minimum for a loaded round would be .374" when measured over the bullet. .3811" minus .007" = .3741" http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...Luger%20+P.pdf

Nick_C_S · April 22, 2014, 07:15 PM

Quote:

It takes more force because 9mm is tapered and rather thick walled.

We have a winner: ^^ Mr. Jim Watson.^^

And he's also right that a little lube helps.

But yes, the tapered, thick walls of the 9mm makes for some eyebrow raising effort when resizing that little case. Most likely, what you are experiencing is normal.

happymachinist · April 22, 2014, 11:37 PM

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I'm surely over thinking my process. My question should have been as simple as:

"Does sizing 9mm require more force than 40 or 45?"

I included my measurements in case they were of any help/relevance.

I appreciate the link to SAAMI's dimensions, I like how it actually has tolerances other than just max dimensions, a .007" window for diameter is nothing to fuss over. (In my defense I didn't know what the window was, only max.)

Nick_C_S · April 22, 2014, 11:52 PM

Now, for the next thing to overthink: internal case volume variance

This is actually a bit of an issue with 9mm because the internal case volume is so small to begin with. Any slight variation from headstamp to headstamp volume can significantly increase pressures.

If you're just loading general purpose rounds, I wouldn't be too concerned about it. But if you're loading the hot stuff, you might want to separate by headstamp and use all one type. Some people separate by headstamp with all chamberings, but I only do 9mm.

Nick_C_S · April 22, 2014, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Another thing that you did not consider is Glock bulge which is when the brass was previously shot in a firearm that does not have a fully supported chamber.

I have not noticed this to be an issue with 9mm.

overthere · April 23, 2014, 04:59 PM

Happymachinist, I started out loading 9mm as my first pistol cartridge and when I later started loading 45 ACP I was thinking my 45 die was too large due to the lack of force needed for the resizing

I like the 'chewy' feel of sizing 9mm, feels like it gets things done.

happymachinist · April 23, 2014, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick_C_S

Now, for the next thing to overthink: internal case volume variance

This is actually a bit of an issue with 9mm because the internal case volume is so small to begin with. Any slight variation from headstamp to headstamp volume can significantly increase pressures.

If you're just loading general purpose rounds, I wouldn't be too concerned about it. But if you're loading the hot stuff, you might want to separate by headstamp and use all one type. Some people separate by headstamp with all chamberings, but I only do 9mm.

Yeah I just plan on loading some plinking rounds for our steel targets, nothing hot. Reliability is what I'm after, planned on just using start charge as long as they cycle.

All the 9mm brass I have came from a couple CZ 75Bs. I don't frequent shooting ranges, they're all farther away than I want to drive and we're starting to get a nice little handgun range built.

happymachinist · April 23, 2014, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by overthere

Happymachinist, I started out loading 9mm as my first pistol cartridge and when I later started loading 45 ACP I was thinking my 45 die was too large due to the lack of force needed for the resizing

I like the 'chewy' feel of sizing 9mm, feels like it gets things done.

Similar to me thinking my 9mm was too small. Just the nature of the different cases I suppose. I still have lots to learn!!

Nick_C_S · April 23, 2014, 11:56 PM

Enjoy your reloading endeavors. Stay focused. Be patient. Be safe. And don't be afraid to ask questions (as you just did).

Loading can be a rewarding craft in and of itself - aside from just "making ammo."

Miata Mike · April 25, 2014, 09:34 PM

I put my 9mm cases to be sized in a large plastic bag and give a light shot of Pledge type furniture polish on the brass and mix well. A little goes a long way to making sizing a bit easier.

243winxb · April 25, 2014, 11:16 PM

Redding makes a dual ring carbide sizer for straight wall handgun cartridges
. Two different diameters. Should be perfect for 9mm. Only problem is the price. $$$ OOP's, None listed for 9mm?? http://www.redding-reloading.com/ind...g-carbide-dies

Quote:

Dual Ring Carbide Sizing Dies

Cartridge Item No.

38 Special 95183

357 Magnum 95182

40 Smith & Wesson 95272

44 Special 95187

44 Magnum 95186

45 ACP 95189

45 Colt 95191

$147.00

Clark · April 26, 2014, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Old April 22, 2014, 09:43 AM #1
9mm die sizing too small? ...
Also the ID of the carbide ring on my die measures .372, again caliper accuracy applies.

Using pin gauges as go gauges:

9x19mm Luger sizer dies:
Redding 0.386" tapers to 0.367"
RCBS 0.382" tapers to 0.366"

380 sizer dies:
RCBS 0.371" tapers to 0.361"
Lee carbide 0.367"

380 factory crimp die
Lee 0.372"

SAAMI toleranced drawings of cartridges max size:
9x19mm Luger 0.391" tapers to 0.380"
380 cartridge 0.3739" tapers to 0.370"

If we wanted dies to be .002" smaller than the SAAMI max cartridge, we would make dies:
9mm: 0.389" tapers to 0.378" or a 0.378" carbide ring
380: 0.372" tapers to 0.368" or a 0.368" carbide ring

The tolerance is -0.007" for 9mm and -0.006" for 380 cartridges.

If we wanted dies .002" smaller than the SAAMI minimum we would make dies:
9mm: 0.382" tapers to 0.371" or a 0.371" carbide ring
380: 0.366" tapers to 0.362" or a 0.362" carbide ring

I expect a 9mm carbide die to be delivered today. I will try to remember to measure it.

What does it all mean?
The OP has a 380 sizer die.

happymachinist · April 27, 2014, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clark

What does it all mean?
The OP has a 380 sizer die.

I found some stray 380 brass while I was sizing the 9mm. It went in and barely contacted the surface, and no sizing took place. I dont believe it is a 380 die.

Clark · April 27, 2014, 02:13 PM

Quote:

happymachinist
I found some stray 380 brass while I was sizing the 9mm. It went in and barely contacted the surface, and no sizing took place. I dont believe it is a 380 die.

Sorry, I know I can make a better post

My 9mm carbide die arrived, and I had accidentally ordered another 9mm factory crimp

I am not always incompetent, and I can recover.

I should have said that you were using a carbide ring the size of a 380 factory crimp ring. I did not even read my own post well

I ordered another 9mm carbide sizer die.
Happymachinist, I am determined to write a post that does not waste your time.

Here is a pic of the largest pin gauge that will fit in a 380 FC die.

Here is another pic of 380 brass untouched by that 380FC die and 9mm brass that gets a midriff bulge from that 380FC die.

happymachinist · April 28, 2014, 12:08 AM

Clark,

Thanks for the measurements of your dies. I've been meaning to bring mine to work and plug gage mine as well but have been too busy at work.

Your post wasn't a waste of my time, far from it in fact.

I had a little time at work to take some measurements tonight. I plugged mine at .388 tapering to .371". The .371 was lose but a .372 wouldn't go, I'm guessing its about .3715 or a little bigger.

Seems like mine measure about what they should compared to yours.

Thanks for the help, time to get to sizing some brass and assembling some rounds!

April 22, 2014, 03:30 PM	#6
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	Glock bulge? Another thing that you did not consider is Glock bulge which is when the brass was previously shot in a firearm that does not have a fully supported chamber. When working range brass you can tell without looking the difference is pressure required is dramatic.

April 22, 2014, 11:52 PM	#10
Nick_C_S Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2013 Location: Idaho Posts: 5,523	Internal Case Volume Variance Now, for the next thing to overthink: internal case volume variance This is actually a bit of an issue with 9mm because the internal case volume is so small to begin with. Any slight variation from headstamp to headstamp volume can significantly increase pressures. If you're just loading general purpose rounds, I wouldn't be too concerned about it. But if you're loading the hot stuff, you might want to separate by headstamp and use all one type. Some people separate by headstamp with all chamberings, but I only do 9mm. __________________ Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association

April 23, 2014, 11:56 PM	#15
Nick_C_S Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2013 Location: Idaho Posts: 5,523	Enjoy your reloading endeavors. Stay focused. Be patient. Be safe. And don't be afraid to ask questions (as you just did). Loading can be a rewarding craft in and of itself - aside from just "making ammo." __________________ Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association

April 25, 2014, 09:34 PM	#16
Miata Mike Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2010 Location: North East WI Posts: 418	I put my 9mm cases to be sized in a large plastic bag and give a light shot of Pledge type furniture polish on the brass and mix well. A little goes a long way to making sizing a bit easier. __________________ NRA Life benefactor Member.

April 22, 2014, 11:43 AM	#1
happymachinist Member Join Date: December 11, 2012 Location: Central Nebraska Posts: 55	9mm die sizing too small? I'm new to reloading and I've thus far only reloaded 40 S&W and 45 ACP. This morning I began to size some 9mm Luger. While FL sizing I noticed quite a bit more resistance than either the 40 and 45 I've done. (Did about 30 cases various stamp.) The reloading manuals I have, state their dimensions at max are .381 (case mouth) mine are coming out .373-.374 OD at the case mouth. Does that sound about right? Case ID at the mouth is .350 +/-.002 (caliper accurate). This sounds kind of tight but like I said I'm new, just want to double check before potentially screwing up anymore cases. Also the ID of the carbide ring on my die measures .372, again caliper accuracy applies. I guess I also should note I am using Lee dies, tried calling Lee but got the busy tone so I thought I'd check here in the meantime.

April 22, 2014, 12:24 PM	#2
riche Member Join Date: April 10, 2011 Location: upstate new york near the adirondacks Posts: 48	Let me see if I can help, The bullet dia. for 9mm parabellum should be around .355, so your .350+/-.002 sounds about right. What you need to do is bell the mouth of your cases just enough so the bullet just fits inside the case neck but don't over do it, then when you seat the bullet the rest of the way you'll have plenty of tension to grip the bullet. Hope this helps, perhaps I didn't understand your question if my help was no help at all.

April 22, 2014, 01:38 PM	#3
happymachinist Member Join Date: December 11, 2012 Location: Central Nebraska Posts: 55	Yeah my main concern was too much tension on the bullet. I generalized my ID tolerance as best I could at .350+/-.002. Some cases are at .348 which would put me at a .007 press which sounded a bit excessive, even after i bell out the case mouth to start the bullet, but like I said I'm a novice. I would imagine the most watched/inspected dimension(s) would be the carbide sizing ring as that's the heart of the die but mistakes do happen just wanted to run my numbers passed you guys that have been doing this longer to make sure my die wasn't undersized or I wasn't making an obvious mistake. The big red flag to me was it took considerably more force to size these 9mm than the other "straight" walled cases I've done.

April 22, 2014, 01:56 PM	#4
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	It takes more force because 9mm is tapered and rather thick walled. A LIGHT spritz of case lube will help considerably. Use little enough and you won't have to clean it off after loading. I LIKE my 9mm bullets to be a press fit. I am happiest when I see a "coke bottle" effect with a noticeable waist under the base of the bullet. That holds the bullet against setback. If I were shooting bullseye or PPC with an emphasis on 50 yard accuracy, I would want a sizing die matched to my lot of brass and my chamber; just enough tension to prevent setback and encourage powder ignition. But I don't, so I want a good stout cartridge.

April 22, 2014, 03:13 PM	#5
jag2 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: dallas Posts: 773	Like a lot of newbies, you are way over thinking it. As mentioned, 9mm is not a straight wall case, I think it requires more effort to size than any other pistol round I load. A little spray case lube really does help. When you FL size do as little as possible, you don't need to run the whole case in the die. Do as much as necessary to make the case chamber, that is all you need. Its easier if you remove the barrel from your gun so you can keep checking as you adjust your die. With your expander die, again do as little as necessary. I doubt I have ever measured the ID. You expand just enough to be able to get the bullet started, that is all. You don't need your calipers for this. They are helpful to set the OAL and that's about it. You are trying to create the "perfect" round, there is no such thing. Many factory rounds will vary from brand to brand. What you are trying to produce is a round that will feed reliably in your pistol and be accurate. What works best in your gun may not be ideal for mine. Just keep at it and it will start to make sense after a while.

April 22, 2014, 11:37 PM	#9
happymachinist Member Join Date: December 11, 2012 Location: Central Nebraska Posts: 55	Thanks for the replies. Yes, I'm surely over thinking my process. My question should have been as simple as: "Does sizing 9mm require more force than 40 or 45?" I included my measurements in case they were of any help/relevance. I appreciate the link to SAAMI's dimensions, I like how it actually has tolerances other than just max dimensions, a .007" window for diameter is nothing to fuss over. (In my defense I didn't know what the window was, only max.)

April 23, 2014, 04:59 PM	#12
overthere Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2012 Posts: 290	Happymachinist, I started out loading 9mm as my first pistol cartridge and when I later started loading 45 ACP I was thinking my 45 die was too large due to the lack of force needed for the resizing I like the 'chewy' feel of sizing 9mm, feels like it gets things done.

April 28, 2014, 12:08 AM	#21
happymachinist Member Join Date: December 11, 2012 Location: Central Nebraska Posts: 55	Clark, Thanks for the measurements of your dies. I've been meaning to bring mine to work and plug gage mine as well but have been too busy at work. Your post wasn't a waste of my time, far from it in fact. I had a little time at work to take some measurements tonight. I plugged mine at .388 tapering to .371". The .371 was lose but a .372 wouldn't go, I'm guessing its about .3715 or a little bigger. Seems like mine measure about what they should compared to yours. Thanks for the help, time to get to sizing some brass and assembling some rounds!