Most accurate 9mm ?? - Page 3

PSP · July 10, 2012, 05:52 AM

My HK P7 is a nice gun and shoots pretty well, as evidenced by the target below, (6mags of 8 rounds each) ...

...but, accurate to me means rounds are close, if not touching. Accomplished with a HK USP Elite.

Most modern guns will shoot a fairly tight group in the hands of a good shot. I recently bought a GSG 1911-22 that produced a quarter sized group with the very first magazine. A really good gun, one that has consistently precise barrel to slide fit and a decent trigger, will produce a 1" group at 12-25 yards. The only variable should be the skill of the hand holding it.

Pilot · July 10, 2012, 06:17 AM

My three most accurate 9MM pistols are very close in accuracy, but the Browning Hi Power is easiest for me to shoot accurately. Somewhat in order they are:

Browning Hi Power - 1194 MK III Silver Chrome

HK P7M8 (or PSP, they're equal)

CZ-75B

All of these are bone stock with no mods whatsoever. A little trigger work on the BHP and 75B would make them even easier to shoot accurately.

Fargazer · July 10, 2012, 07:33 AM

I have seen a lot of good feedback (especially for PPC) on the 6 inch 1911 pattern guns, particularly from STI (TargetMaster) and Les Baer. Given the extended sight distance and the single action trigger, I can see why.

sirgilligan · July 10, 2012, 09:35 AM

Quote:

accurate to me means rounds are close

I think that is called "precise".

Your photo shows both accuracy and precision.

If you group (all of the Points of Impact) are centered around the Point of Aim then the results are accurate. If the POI is off from the POA but the impacts are tight, it is precise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision

scottycoyote · July 10, 2012, 09:43 AM

ive never shot off sandbags or a rest with a pistol, but just shooting like i normally shoot id say hk usp, followed closely by a browning highpower

Jim Watson · July 10, 2012, 09:46 AM

Been a while since I shot PPC but from talking to an active shooter, THE gun to have is a S&W PPC 1500. I don't know if they are still making them but if not, one is worth looking for. I watched him shoot the one he eventually bought in side by side comparison with other guns, including a 952, and it was substantially more accurate than any of them.

Otherwise you could go with a seriously accurized 9mm 1911oid.

Some of the well known mass produced guns mentioned here would do ok in the service pistol competition, but it takes more than a "nice gun" to keep up in the match pistol events.

ripnbst · July 10, 2012, 09:58 AM

Shooting that distance in a competition setting I'd look no further than a 1911 chambered in 9mm. Which brand I don't know who all makes 9mm in that platform but that's where I'd start.

5R milspec · July 10, 2012, 03:47 PM

what no love for a Springfield EMP.well I vote for the EMP mine shoots anything I feed it.or it has so fare.just no pics to back it up with.just plenty of people to speak fo it.

Jim Watson · July 10, 2012, 03:51 PM

How does it do at 50 yards? On a B27 target with 4x6" ten ring.

That applies to anything discussed here.
PPC is a precision game, not quite as hard as bullseye, but almost.
One hole groups at 10 yards mean nothing; what will the gun (and ammo) do at 50 yards?

Sharpsdressed Man · July 10, 2012, 04:57 PM

"How does it do at 50 yards? On a B27 target with 4x6" ten ring.

That applies to anything discussed here.
PPC is a precision game, not quite as hard as bullseye, but almost.
One hole groups at 10 yards mean nothing; what will the gun (and ammo) do at 50 yards?" * ******************* TYPICALLY, about five times as large, all things being equal...................

Jim Watson · July 10, 2012, 05:04 PM

But things aren't equal. Perfect geometrical spread is not likely over large increases in range.

WIN1886 · July 10, 2012, 05:23 PM

I'm hoping my BHP turns out to be an accurate shooter.......in stock form the trigger pull is one of the worst I've experienced on any handgun I've owned or tried ! I do like the way the BHP fits in my hand , points , the weight seems about right , and just the general charm & quality of the piece.....however , I got to find a cure for the crappy trigger !

Kreyzhorse · July 10, 2012, 05:36 PM

I saw my buddy tear up a target with his Walther PPS in a way that was really impressive. He is a good shot, but this was 50 rounds at 7 yards in the area the size of a quarter.

While I too own a PPS, I shoot mine ok, but I believe any inaccuracies in my PPS were shooter, not the gun.

sirgilligan · July 10, 2012, 06:51 PM

Quote:

I'm hoping my BHP turns out to be an accurate shooter.......in stock form the trigger pull is one of the worst I've experienced on any handgun I've owned or tried ! I do like the way the BHP fits in my hand , points , the weight seems about right , and just the general charm & quality of the piece.....however , I got to find a cure for the crappy trigger !

Look at your magazines, the front, there will be a spot where the mag safety rubs on it, should be obvious if the trigger has been pulled much.

Dry fire your BHP (use snap caps if you want) and make a mental note of the trigger pull.

Now, rub a bit of oil, just a little, on the spot where the mag safety touches the mag. Now pull the trigger. Notice any difference?

My Browning mags are "slicker" than my Mec-Gar mags.

Sharpsdressed Man · July 10, 2012, 07:57 PM

But all things are equal, even the variables. There are rifle shooters that will tell you that BETTER groups can be shot at 200 yards than what would be indicated by the 100 yards groups. The bullets actually STABILIZE better after 100 yards, and often the 200 yards groups are actually less than double sized 100 yard groups. Forget about human error, no way to measure that. So, we have to be talking about the mechanical & POSSIBLE theoretical accuracy, based on results from a machine rest, best ammunition, etc. No one has that data for any guns but their own, and few of us have that for OUR own guns. If my groups are more than double at 50 yards than what they are at 25, do you think it is the gun? Or my eyes, hands, and me?

Jim Watson · July 11, 2012, 12:19 AM

I've long been hearing and reading about bullets that get more accurate the farther they go, but have not seen it demonstrated. Yeah, Joe Shooter will say, "I shot a 1 MOA group at 100 yards last week and a 3/4 MOA group at 200 yesterday. That does not count. Let him average out several hundred groups and see how it goes.

There was one attempt to demonstrate it that I know of.
A benchrest shooter set one of the Oehler Accoustic Targets up at 100 yards and paper at 334 yards. Why 334? I dunno, but I am sure he had his reasons. Maybe 300 even would have fallen in the middle of a creek or other hazard. He said after some large number of groups that he NEVER saw one that was relatively smaller at 334 than at 100.

Sharpsdressed Man · July 11, 2012, 07:32 AM

I guess we are getting to the same point of truth. Except for the external conditions, like weather, wind, human error, etc, the accuracy of any gun and cartridge combination is probably more constant than not. Whether one accepts his or her personal demand for accuracy from a 100 yard group, or a 500 yard group, unless the external factors can be eliminated, NEITHER is indicative of the full accuracy potential of the gun and ammo.

darkgael · July 11, 2012, 08:24 AM

Quote:

at 334 yards. Why 334?

I suspect that he was attempting to duplicate a 300 meter course. That would be 328 yards. But...maybe....?

Quote:

A really good gun, one that has consistently precise barrel to slide fit and a decent trigger, will produce a 1" group at 12-25 yards. The only variable should be the skill of the hand holding it.

Yeah, that is about right.....a good Bullseye gun will hold the X-ring (1.6" dia.) at 50 yards.
Pete

Shadi Khalil · July 11, 2012, 12:59 PM

Sig 226, 239 and the HKP30.

5R milspec · July 11, 2012, 01:24 PM

shooting is always a gamble no matter what rifel/pistol and ammo you are useing.we cannot in any way make the same gun twice or reload the same bullet twice.for the matter we cannot even shoot the same from day to day.anything and everything comes into play every time.some do better than others ( they shoot alot more )some not.

for the most part ( hunting in mind ) if my ammo holds MOA for any range from 100 to 500 yards its great ammo.I know it will kill the deer I'm about to shoot.

for my pistol ( SD in mind ) if my ammo holds say 3-5 inches at 25 yards its great ammo.but I know with my EMP and a rest it just shoots no matter if I loaded the ammo or not.even when I shoot free handed it shoots,and for me thats all I can ask for.

sorry if I didn't read the post all the way through.I just posted on a short reading of the post,and that no one didn't post about an EMP.but you have to say if you have ever shot an EMP they are great shooters.

SIGSHR · July 11, 2012, 11:27 PM

I got a 1.5" vertical group out of my 1943 Walther made P38 with a pitted barrel using Winchester Silvertips. 25 yards standing, isoceles stance.

Consort · July 13, 2012, 05:33 AM

All guns are accurate; the difference is in the marksman's skill.

bluetopper · July 13, 2012, 08:52 PM

I'll put my Fusion 9mm Longslide against any mentioned.

I will do the same with my Dan Wesson PM-9.

oneounceload · July 13, 2012, 09:05 PM

Another vote for the HKP7 - my G17 is very accurate, but the P7 puts it to shame

C7AR15 · July 14, 2012, 12:40 AM

All guns are accurate; the difference is in the marksman's skill.

NO, I don't think so. Some guns are made on Monday morning or during a labour dispute.

What is true is that 80% of guns can out shoot their owners.
Also guns made today with all the CNC machining and quality control checks in place, are much better than those of 20 years ago.
Also the competition is brutal in the bolt gun section. With 1" MOA guns for
$500 Guaranteed with match ammo.

Handgun accuracy is NOT subjective - put your gun in a ransom rest with good ammo. Some guns are horrible and others are incrediblely accurate to 50 YDS.
Just put a ruler to measure the group size. Nothing subjective here.
Small group -good Large group - BAD

July 10, 2012, 06:17 AM	#52
Pilot Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2000 Posts: 4,193	My three most accurate 9MM pistols are very close in accuracy, but the Browning Hi Power is easiest for me to shoot accurately. Somewhat in order they are: Browning Hi Power - 1194 MK III Silver Chrome HK P7M8 (or PSP, they're equal) CZ-75B All of these are bone stock with no mods whatsoever. A little trigger work on the BHP and 75B would make them even easier to shoot accurately. __________________ Pilot

July 10, 2012, 07:33 AM	#53
Fargazer Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2010 Location: Chattanooga, TN Posts: 466	I have seen a lot of good feedback (especially for PPC) on the 6 inch 1911 pattern guns, particularly from STI (TargetMaster) and Les Baer. Given the extended sight distance and the single action trigger, I can see why. __________________ NRA Life Member

July 10, 2012, 09:43 AM	#55
scottycoyote Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2005 Location: southwestern va Posts: 830	ive never shot off sandbags or a rest with a pistol, but just shooting like i normally shoot id say hk usp, followed closely by a browning highpower __________________ "i got the most powerful gun in the world........an .88 magnum. It shoots thru schools......"

July 10, 2012, 03:47 PM	#58
5R milspec Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 360	what no love for a Springfield EMP.well I vote for the EMP mine shoots anything I feed it.or it has so fare.just no pics to back it up with.just plenty of people to speak fo it. __________________ life is great but its better when you can own as many guns you wish to own.for me I haven't bought enough yet.

July 10, 2012, 05:36 PM	#63
Kreyzhorse Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2006 Location: NKY Posts: 12,463	I saw my buddy tear up a target with his Walther PPS in a way that was really impressive. He is a good shot, but this was 50 rounds at 7 yards in the area the size of a quarter. While I too own a PPS, I shoot mine ok, but I believe any inaccuracies in my PPS were shooter, not the gun. __________________ "He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson

July 10, 2012, 05:52 AM	#51
PSP Senior Member Join Date: June 2, 2006 Location: Bowling Green Virginia Posts: 4,487	My HK P7 is a nice gun and shoots pretty well, as evidenced by the target below, (6mags of 8 rounds each) ... ...but, accurate to me means rounds are close, if not touching. Accomplished with a HK USP Elite. Most modern guns will shoot a fairly tight group in the hands of a good shot. I recently bought a GSG 1911-22 that produced a quarter sized group with the very first magazine. A really good gun, one that has consistently precise barrel to slide fit and a decent trigger, will produce a 1" group at 12-25 yards. The only variable should be the skill of the hand holding it.

July 10, 2012, 09:46 AM	#56
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Been a while since I shot PPC but from talking to an active shooter, THE gun to have is a S&W PPC 1500. I don't know if they are still making them but if not, one is worth looking for. I watched him shoot the one he eventually bought in side by side comparison with other guns, including a 952, and it was substantially more accurate than any of them. Otherwise you could go with a seriously accurized 9mm 1911oid. Some of the well known mass produced guns mentioned here would do ok in the service pistol competition, but it takes more than a "nice gun" to keep up in the match pistol events.

July 10, 2012, 09:58 AM	#57
ripnbst Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2010 Location: Spring, TX Posts: 1,552	Shooting that distance in a competition setting I'd look no further than a 1911 chambered in 9mm. Which brand I don't know who all makes 9mm in that platform but that's where I'd start.

July 10, 2012, 03:51 PM	#59
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	How does it do at 50 yards? On a B27 target with 4x6" ten ring. That applies to anything discussed here. PPC is a precision game, not quite as hard as bullseye, but almost. One hole groups at 10 yards mean nothing; what will the gun (and ammo) do at 50 yards?

July 10, 2012, 04:57 PM	#60
Sharpsdressed Man Junior member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 1,176	"How does it do at 50 yards? On a B27 target with 4x6" ten ring. That applies to anything discussed here. PPC is a precision game, not quite as hard as bullseye, but almost. One hole groups at 10 yards mean nothing; what will the gun (and ammo) do at 50 yards?" * ******************* TYPICALLY, about five times as large, all things being equal...................

July 10, 2012, 05:04 PM	#61
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	But things aren't equal. Perfect geometrical spread is not likely over large increases in range.

July 10, 2012, 05:23 PM	#62
WIN1886 Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 604	I'm hoping my BHP turns out to be an accurate shooter.......in stock form the trigger pull is one of the worst I've experienced on any handgun I've owned or tried ! I do like the way the BHP fits in my hand , points , the weight seems about right , and just the general charm & quality of the piece.....however , I got to find a cure for the crappy trigger !

July 10, 2012, 07:57 PM	#65
Sharpsdressed Man Junior member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 1,176	But all things are equal, even the variables. There are rifle shooters that will tell you that BETTER groups can be shot at 200 yards than what would be indicated by the 100 yards groups. The bullets actually STABILIZE better after 100 yards, and often the 200 yards groups are actually less than double sized 100 yard groups. Forget about human error, no way to measure that. So, we have to be talking about the mechanical & POSSIBLE theoretical accuracy, based on results from a machine rest, best ammunition, etc. No one has that data for any guns but their own, and few of us have that for OUR own guns. If my groups are more than double at 50 yards than what they are at 25, do you think it is the gun? Or my eyes, hands, and me?

July 11, 2012, 12:19 AM	#66
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	I've long been hearing and reading about bullets that get more accurate the farther they go, but have not seen it demonstrated. Yeah, Joe Shooter will say, "I shot a 1 MOA group at 100 yards last week and a 3/4 MOA group at 200 yesterday. That does not count. Let him average out several hundred groups and see how it goes. There was one attempt to demonstrate it that I know of. A benchrest shooter set one of the Oehler Accoustic Targets up at 100 yards and paper at 334 yards. Why 334? I dunno, but I am sure he had his reasons. Maybe 300 even would have fallen in the middle of a creek or other hazard. He said after some large number of groups that he NEVER saw one that was relatively smaller at 334 than at 100.

July 11, 2012, 07:32 AM	#67
Sharpsdressed Man Junior member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 1,176	I guess we are getting to the same point of truth. Except for the external conditions, like weather, wind, human error, etc, the accuracy of any gun and cartridge combination is probably more constant than not. Whether one accepts his or her personal demand for accuracy from a 100 yard group, or a 500 yard group, unless the external factors can be eliminated, NEITHER is indicative of the full accuracy potential of the gun and ammo.

July 11, 2012, 12:59 PM	#69
Shadi Khalil Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2006 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 5,210	Sig 226, 239 and the HKP30.

July 11, 2012, 01:24 PM	#70
5R milspec Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 360	shooting is always a gamble no matter what rifel/pistol and ammo you are useing.we cannot in any way make the same gun twice or reload the same bullet twice.for the matter we cannot even shoot the same from day to day.anything and everything comes into play every time.some do better than others ( they shoot alot more )some not. for the most part ( hunting in mind ) if my ammo holds MOA for any range from 100 to 500 yards its great ammo.I know it will kill the deer I'm about to shoot. for my pistol ( SD in mind ) if my ammo holds say 3-5 inches at 25 yards its great ammo.but I know with my EMP and a rest it just shoots no matter if I loaded the ammo or not.even when I shoot free handed it shoots,and for me thats all I can ask for. sorry if I didn't read the post all the way through.I just posted on a short reading of the post,and that no one didn't post about an EMP.but you have to say if you have ever shot an EMP they are great shooters. __________________ life is great but its better when you can own as many guns you wish to own.for me I haven't bought enough yet.

July 11, 2012, 11:27 PM	#71
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	I got a 1.5" vertical group out of my 1943 Walther made P38 with a pitted barrel using Winchester Silvertips. 25 yards standing, isoceles stance.

July 13, 2012, 05:33 AM	#72
Consort Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2011 Posts: 134	All guns are accurate; the difference is in the marksman's skill.

July 13, 2012, 08:52 PM	#73
bluetopper Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2005 Location: Northeast TX Posts: 1,197	I'll put my Fusion 9mm Longslide against any mentioned. I will do the same with my Dan Wesson PM-9. Last edited by bluetopper; July 13, 2012 at 10:55 PM.

July 13, 2012, 09:05 PM	#74
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Another vote for the HKP7 - my G17 is very accurate, but the P7 puts it to shame

July 14, 2012, 12:40 AM	#75
C7AR15 Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2011 Location: Burnaby Posts: 260	All guns accurate ???!! All guns are accurate; the difference is in the marksman's skill. NO, I don't think so. Some guns are made on Monday morning or during a labour dispute. What is true is that 80% of guns can out shoot their owners. Also guns made today with all the CNC machining and quality control checks in place, are much better than those of 20 years ago. Also the competition is brutal in the bolt gun section. With 1" MOA guns for $500 Guaranteed with match ammo. Handgun accuracy is NOT subjective - put your gun in a ransom rest with good ammo. Some guns are horrible and others are incrediblely accurate to 50 YDS. Just put a ruler to measure the group size. Nothing subjective here. Small group -good Large group - BAD