Concealed Carry / Illionis

Brant · December 13, 2011, 01:20 PM

I am a Correctional Officer in Illinois. Illinois law states that for peace officers (that includes corrections) that they may carry a weapon while in prefomence of duties. "Preformance of duties" is defiend be the head of their department.

This means that some officers may carry off duty while some may not. Corrections in southern Illinois are generally allowed to carry off duty. This makes Sense because, while an inmate may be upset at a police officer, its corrections that spend 24 hours a day with them. Its the correcitonal officer they know the most about, and the correctional officer who cause angers them the most.

I work at a jail that has a capacity of about 700 inmates. I see many of them on the streets. On a few occasions they have seen me. This is where my issue begins.

While at a bar (about 100 yards from my house) I ran into a particularly friendly person who said it was his birthday and if he sees any pig he's going to pop one off in them. He then reached behind his back. The friend that was with me opened his eyes about as wide as softballs and said "what was that?" The person in question reached behind his back again. Being in bad position to see what the guy had I made small talk and soon headed for the restroom. My buddy was about 2 seconds behind me and entered practically hyperventalating. The guy had a gun. (shiney revolver to be exact, he was quite adimant about that)

A quick call to the local PD ended with 6 Officers tackleing the guy. One of which was a friend, and quite frankly, I think him sitting on anybody should be considered deadly force! But after a quick trip to the station to file a report, the situation was over. The officer taking the report making the comment to my buddy "That guy's lucky you saw it instead of him (talking about me), he could have shot him in the head." I smiled and noded at his ignorance of my sheriff's policy.

While state law allows me to carry, it requiers that I have premission of my deparment head, the sheriff. He has a stict policy that corrections does not carry off duty. The idea here, that corrections cannot be trusted to be responsable. My argument is to stop hireing crappy people that can't be trusted, and get rid of the ones we already have, and the issue is solved.

But for the sake of argument lets listen to how this could have gone worse:

The guy recognised me from the Jail. Weather I saw him or not, I cannot run faster than bullets. So he shoots me. He also noticed that a guy walked in with me and assumed that he was a cop. Now my buddys dead too. Oh, lets throw in there that a few of the bystanders were hit too, heck there was 20+ people in a relatively small area.

Now I can't help what I can't see. But if I was armed (not advocating drinking while carring here) and did notice him, don't I at least have a fighting chance? Who's fault is it if I saw him and was killed because I was unarmed? I wonder what would happen if my buddy suvived, told the family and they sued the sheriff for putting me in danger.

This is the exact reason that Illinois needs a conceled carry law. Our own Sheriffs can't even be trusted to allow their officers to protect themselves.

kraigwy · December 13, 2011, 02:17 PM

Quote:

an employee of a governmental agency,

be authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law,

have statutory powers of arrest,

be authorized by the agency to carry a firearm

The above is from the LEOSA. I don't believe it covers correction officers unless you "have the statutory powers of arrest" but again I don't know Ill law.

I do know you could run across problems if you were in the Chicago area.

I am a retired police officer and do carry under the LEOSA and found CPD officers for the most part don't agree with the law.

I was riding my motor cycle to Camp Perry and at a rest area on I90 ran across some off duty CPD cops. While riding my bike I wear my old leather jacket from my department and it still has the patch.

One of the guys asked where I got the coat, I told him I stole it when I retired. He asked if I was retired and I replied I was. He then asked if I was carrying, I didn't like his attitude and simply said, "I don't know, am I". He looked to his buddies for advice. I just left.

This is the first time in my 20 year career and my 17 years since retiring have I ran across this attitude from other cops toward out of state or retired cops.

I relay this simply because, if you do decide to carry, Ill isn't the place.

Brant · December 13, 2011, 02:37 PM

As I recall, there was a federal law put into place under Bush that allowes all officers and retierd officers to carry regardless of where they are. It was one of theose things put in place after 9/11 to allow more people to respond and assist where nessisary. It covered everyone exept corrections. We might be talking about the same law, I'm not sure.

Most of the officers where I live that do know about my dept. policy are of the mindset "if your not stupid with it, we dont care." But some departments go to the extream. Some officers can't handle the fact that they're employed to protect people and their rights.

kraigwy · December 13, 2011, 02:55 PM

There is a group from NJ I believe, made up of cops and attoneys that travel the country educating departments about the LEOSA.

It appears that many departments learned the hard way and have paid dearly in law suits.

I believe it was Chicago, (but may be wrong about the city) had to pay $200,000 for a false arrest suit for violating the LEOSA.

San Fernando, California ending up paying $44,000 in another violation of the LEOSA case.

Fishing_Cabin · December 13, 2011, 02:57 PM

Brant, sounds like everything went well for you.

Here locally, while they do understand that LEOSA and its updates do exist and are law, they only specifically allow conceled carry within your jurisdiction. Anywhere outside of our jurisdiction, and its on the officer him/herself to ensure that he is legal in every way. It was brought up in a meeting about adding a note to the back off the photo id stating that "this officer meets the requirements of LEOSA" or whatever is needed to meet the legal wording, and a telphone number listed for communications to confirm the ID. It was refused. Even a concealed carry permit is no good, because we are only allowed to carry a firearm we have qualified with, and has been approved by the dept, even off duty.

kraigwy, I hope those lawyers and officers that you mentioned traveling around help departments to adopt policies more in line with LEOSA in respect to their own officers. Last spring when I qualified, the instructors said that NC still hasnt decided on what to do about the LEOSA improvement act of 2010.

kraigwy · December 13, 2011, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Last spring when I qualified, the instructors said that NC still hasnt decided on what to do about the LEOSA improvement act of 2010

So who cares, NC doesn't have to decide. Its decided for them. Lets say you retired in NC and are given a valid retired ID card stating you are a retired LEO, and NC has no means to qualify retirees.

Simply go somewhere else. You can go to any state or location and have any qualified LEO instructor qualify you.

I live in Wyoming. I'm not fond of the local instructor for reasons I could write a book about. Anyway, every year I go to my daughters in Portland for a reunion of sorts. Since I go there every year, I qualify at the Clackamas County LE Center. They give me a limamanted card stating I'm qualified per LEOSA. They have the means and back ground, including case law, to support their program.

That is just one example, there are simular instructors throughout the country. I mentioned Clackamas County because its the one I use.

Google LEOSA Firearm Qualifications and you'll get several hits, and I'm sure one close to you.

hermannr · December 13, 2011, 04:00 PM

You state another reason IL needs a carry provision in their law. I am not a LEO or retired LEO, but I do live in a (OC and CC) carry friendly state. I cannot imagine being a corrections officer and not being able to defend yourself. That is just crazy. (or a retired LEO that couldn't carry)

Because most of the people here are connected to LE in some way, I have a question for you...the annual training requirement for the LEOSA.

Do you really think that is necessary? If so, why?

kraigwy · December 13, 2011, 04:22 PM

Quote:

...the annual training requirement for the LEOSA.

Do you really think that is necessary? If so, why?

It was necessary to the point that that requirement was needed to get the law passed.

In practice I don't see it's necessary. If one wishes to be profecient with the pistol/revolver he/she carries they will practice on their own.

The qualifications for LEOSA carry I've seen are simple and prove nothing. Being able to hit a man size target at 10 feet doesn't prove one knows how to shoot, it just means he could get the required rounds off without shooting himself in the butt.

But again, most LE qualification isn't much different.

hermannr · December 13, 2011, 05:01 PM

Kraig: I agree and understand the polico side. Here in WA we have no government required "training" to obtain a CPL, and no license requirement for OC, but I don't know anyone with a CPL that has no training at all. You train to the level you are comfortable with, works for me. "One size fits all" never works as expected.

I would think that a retired LEO would be at least be considered as proficient as when he/she were actively employed. I still cringe just thinking of a corrections officer that cannot carry for his own self protection...

This has to change.

MTT TL · December 13, 2011, 05:37 PM

I guess if it were me I would look for another job in a different state. Probably not the best but good luck changing the corruption that is Illinois.

Conversely you could suck up to the boss and get him to grant you special permission behind the back of your coworkers (I understand that is how things work in corrupt societies). Just be real quiet about this.

Think of it like this; it is your life and they are already asking you to do a crappy job for low pay. Why should you take even more risks? If your coworkers valued their lives as much as you do than they would do the same.

C0untZer0 · December 13, 2011, 11:46 PM

Wait a minute... you're a corrections officer, not a police officer.

Unless I'm mistaken, correctional officers are not allowed to carry in Illinois period.

Isn't that what Moore is suing about?

I mean I thought that's what his whole lawsuit was about...

**Aguila Blanca** · December 14, 2011, 12:09 AM

Um, if you are really law enforcement, and not corrections -- aren't you covered by the LEOSA? If you're not covered by the LEOSA, then you're not law enforcement but something else. I'm not sure I see any reason why you should have any more right to carry than any citizen of the state of Illinois. I'm sorry, but I am still angry about the LEOSA. Not angry that it passed, but angry about the duplicity of the law enforcement profession as a group. When the law was being debated through Congress, LEOs hit ALL the gun forums hard, asking for the support of gun owners to get the law passed. The prevailing lie (oops, "line") was, "This is just a first step, a toe in the door. If you help us get this, we'll help y'all get national concealed carry for everyone."

Well, we all did our part, and the LEOSA became law. Now, where's all that LEO support for national citizens' concealed carry we were promised?

"Chirp."

No more special groups. If you're not an LEO and you want to be able to carry, get on board and support the RKBA for everyone, not just your particular clique.

C0untZer0 · December 14, 2011, 12:36 AM

^ No I think he is on board that's why he said:

Quote:

This is the exact reason that Illinois needs a conceled carry law. Our own Sheriffs can't even be trusted to allow their officers to protect themselves.

bitttorrrent · December 14, 2011, 12:51 AM

My Dad had that "retired leo" concealed carry license I guess. He could carry even in Chicago, but never really pushed it.

I live in Chicago and Chicago cops are just trained to be hard as.es. No offense to those that are police in chicago, but I have been harased by them since i first moved here after college.

They treat everyone as a criminal.

Anyway, I can't wait for a concealed cary law in IL. More people need to sue them cause they are broke and can't defend all the cases.

C0untZer0 · December 14, 2011, 10:48 AM

I had a cop pull me over on LSD for speeding and I also had an expired sticker but he was pretty cool, just gave me the speeding ticket and advised me to get the sticker taken care of soon.

I also was once in a sorta bad part of Chicago.. I was helping my dad with the computers at his business and it was late at night so I went out to get whatever - Macs or White Castle or whatever, and I pulled into a BK.

This is somewhere around Ashland and Paulina...

I was going down a one way street and I pulled into a BK. And it was like no one was working at the BK... no one took my order, when I pulled forward I saw there where about 10 or 12 guys hanging out outside the drive-through window. So I did a U-turn right there in the BK lot, and when I exited (I was going pretty fast by that time) I turned the wrong way on the one way, a cop passed me, I did another U-turn.

He was at a stop light and I stopped at the same light. I rolled down my window to explain, but he just shook his head and rolled his eyes. A second later he lit em up and was hauling ass somewhere - I'm assuming someone got shot or stabbed.

He didn't have anytime to mess around with writing a ticket to someone who did a U-turn.

Patriot86 · December 14, 2011, 11:06 AM

Quote:

I live in Chicago and Chicago cops are just trained to be hard as.es. No offense to those that are police in chicago, but I have been harased by them since i first moved here after college.

They treat everyone as a criminal.

Anyway, I can't wait for a concealed cary law in IL. More people need to sue them cause they are broke and can't defend all the cases.

Get ready to be harassed a LOT more by the CPD if they pass CC in Illinois. I am sure Chicago will be like Philly or New Orleans but worse as far as gun owner harassment goes.

Brant · December 14, 2011, 12:50 PM

C0untZer0:

"Wait a minute... you're a corrections officer, not a police officer.

Unless I'm mistaken, correctional officers are not allowed to carry in Illinois period."

Not true, correctional officers are peace officers which in the state of Illinois, are allowed to carry in performance of duties, which as stated in the original post, is completely defined by the dept. head. In this case it would be the sheriff.

Aguila Blanca:

"Um, if you are really law enforcement, and not corrections..."

Brush up on Illinois law, or take my word for it, but state law defines a peace officer as a Police officer, Probational officer, Correctional officer, and even security guards in some instances. Again, peace officers are allowed to carry in performance of bla bla bla.

"I'm not sure I see any reason why you should have any more right to carry than any citizen of the state of Illinois."

Why should I? Because these guys see me on the streets, in street cloths and recognize me. Because as a correctional officer, just like a police officer I have a bit target painted on my back. Because the criminal element in our society has a special hate for all things that have to do with law enforcement, including corrections.

These guys know who I am, the general area I commute (our officers have to live within the county), and if other officers can't keep their mouths shut, these guys know I have a family. its not hard to get online, look up my name, and get my license plate number or divers license info and find out where I live. it took me a total of an hour to find it myself. Thats why corrections have more of a need to carry.

I'm not disparaging the need for anyone else to carry, but walk into someone you had to taze a few months ago because he was resisting. Walk into that guy on the streets where he is more likely to be armed (just at the fact that he's a felon anyway) and your not because you actually follow the law. Again, I cannot run faster than bullets, although, that would be a cool trick.

Brant · December 14, 2011, 01:07 PM

As a matter of fact, for you guys questioning the ability of corrections to carry, or their status as law enforcement, I'll look up and post the statute tonight.

Fishing_Cabin · December 14, 2011, 01:51 PM

Though I am not that familiar with the law in Illinois, in many states, and probably most on some level, corrections officers, "usually have some level of peace officer status." The reason that I put it in quotes is it can vary by agency and location.

Why? The corrections officers not only have to deal with those inmates while within the wall, but they, at least locally, do transport duties for court, and between institutions, work details, etc, and need to have some level of arrest powers to keep the inmates from escaping, and to also arrest them afterwards if the do. Also in some areas the corrections officers may investigate crimes within the walls and file charges as well.

As to who can carry where, why and how...The politicians decide that unfortunatly, and my opinion doesnt matter in the end. I wish it would be equal and easier accross the board personally.

ripnbst · December 14, 2011, 02:20 PM

I don't care to read all the above posts so I don't know if this has been addressed already or not but LEO, Active Military, Corrections, the Sheriff himself, doesn't matter, if you are consuming alcohol it is illegal to carry. Period.

What you are saying (in this instance) is "because he is breaking the law, so then shouldn't I also be allowed to break the law?" My answer in unequivocally no.

C0untZer0 · December 14, 2011, 02:55 PM

I don't claim to totally understand this, so I am posting what I think are the relative sections of the Moore case:

Quote:

10. Plaintiff Michael Moore is a citizen and resident of Illinois residing in Champaign, Champaign County, Illinois. Mr. Moore is 60 years old, married, and he has 4 adult children and 4 grandchildren. Mr. Moore worked as a Corrections Officer in Cook County for 30 years and now works as the Superintendent of the Champaign County Jail.

11. When he was a Corrections Officer, Plaintiff Mr. Moore was also a sworn Deputy Sheriff, and State law allowed him to carry firearms while off-duty. At that time, Mr. Moore did carry a handgun for self-defense from time to time. Now that he is a civilian Jail Superintendent, State law does not include any provision that would allow him to carry a handgun.

3:11-cv-03134-SEM -CHE # 1 Page 3 of 9

12. Plaintiff Mr. Moore holds a valid Firearm Owners Identification Card (“FOID”) issued pursuant to the Illinois Firearm Owners Identification Card Act. As such, he is generally entitled to possess firearms in the State of Illinois. See 430 ILCS 65/2.

13. Plaintiff Mr. Moore would carry a loaded and functional handgun in public for self-defense, but he refrains from doing so because he fears arrest, prosecution, fine, and imprisonment as he understands it is unlawful to carry a handgun in Illinois.

I understand now. I thought Moore was still a corrections officer as Jail Superintendent. But the complaint makes it clear that he is not.

The complaint:

http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/index...attach_id=6521

.

kraigwy · December 14, 2011, 03:14 PM

Quote:

LEO, Active Military, Corrections, the Sheriff himself, doesn't matter, if you are consuming alcohol it is illegal to carry. Period.

Not necessarly. LEOSA states you can't be under the influence but says nothing about drinking or being in a bar.

Remember the Seattle Cop Vs Hells Angles, Sturgis Bike Week.

The off duty Seattle cop was with a group of other cops from Washington attending the Sturgi SD Bike Week.

In the past that same Seattle cop worked undercover working to put MC Gangs in jail. While attending bike week, he was reconized by some HAs, a fight insued and the Seattle Cop shot (in self defense) a HA biker. This was in a bar, and both had been drinking altough the cop was not intoxicated or under the influence.

There was no dispute about the incident being self defence but the prosicuter tried to charge the cop with being in a bar, and drinking will carrying, in violation of SD law.

The court threw out the case saying the officer was protected by the LEOSA. There was no proof (or attempted to prove) he was 'under the influence" although there was no dispute that he was drinking.

C0untZer0 · December 14, 2011, 03:30 PM

There are plenty of instances where Chicago cops have been off-duty in an establishment that serves alcohol, where a person commited acrime and the off-duty police officers intervened and in some cases used their weapons.

I don't think that guns and alcohol are a good mix but I've never seen an officer procecuted under those circumstances for consuming alcohol and carrying and or deploying their firearm.

The only case that I am aware of something similar happening is when some bad Chicago cops got drunk in a bar, initiated a conflict with some other patrons and even went so far as to draw their pistols and pistol whip some people.

I don't know whatever happened in that case - I heard it was being referred to Internal Affairs.

But this is totally different from what's being talked about here, and like I said - off duty cops in bars that have drawn their weapons to intervene in a crime were never charged with anything concerning drinking abd carrying or deploying their weapons.

Brant · December 14, 2011, 07:07 PM

Since we're past the "corrections part," I am NOT advocating drinking while carrying a weapon!

If I was carrying a weapon, (because the sheriff for some reason had a change of heart), I either would not drink or bring another correctional officer as a designated driver and designated armed personnel. We'd rotate as needed ever time we went out, but this would be a small price to pay for protection.

As far as cook county goes, it might as well be a different state. Their courts might as well be California's 9th circuit. As many of you already stated a retired officer is allowed to carry under LEOSA. So as far as I'm concerned, he should have been ok. Now as far as jail superintendent, or "Chief," that dose not mean he is the head of the department.

With county corrections, the jail superintendent is not the official head of the department, the Sheriff is. The ONLY reason my chief can carry is that he is a Lieutenant with our deputies. If we ever got a new sheriff, and he wanted a new jail superintendent, my Chief would not be fired, rather, he would return to patrol in his lieutenant position.

As far as Mr. Moore goes, I'm pretty confidant he could travel armed anywhere south of Cook, and possible Will, counties and not be harassed as long as he had his credentials on him. OK, I know for a fact that officers in Hopkins park in Kankakee county consider you a lethal threat if they see so much as a FOID card, but thats most likely it.

MTT TL · December 14, 2011, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Why should I? Because these guys see me on the streets, in street cloths and recognize me. Because as a correctional officer, just like a police officer I have a bit target painted on my back. Because the criminal element in our society has a special hate for all things that have to do with law enforcement, including corrections.

These guys know who I am, the general area I commute (our officers have to live within the county), and if other officers can't keep their mouths shut, these guys know I have a family. its not hard to get online, look up my name, and get my license plate number or divers license info and find out where I live. it took me a total of an hour to find it myself. Thats why corrections have more of a need to carry.

So? Lots of people have problems. They are denied their rights too. You are starting to sound a little whinny now. If you really cared you would do like that guy in DC and sue the state for the right to carry for everyone instead of trying to figure out a way to take care of yourself.

December 13, 2011, 01:20 PM	#1
Brant Member Join Date: December 10, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 32	Concealed Carry / Illionis I am a Correctional Officer in Illinois. Illinois law states that for peace officers (that includes corrections) that they may carry a weapon while in prefomence of duties. "Preformance of duties" is defiend be the head of their department. This means that some officers may carry off duty while some may not. Corrections in southern Illinois are generally allowed to carry off duty. This makes Sense because, while an inmate may be upset at a police officer, its corrections that spend 24 hours a day with them. Its the correcitonal officer they know the most about, and the correctional officer who cause angers them the most. I work at a jail that has a capacity of about 700 inmates. I see many of them on the streets. On a few occasions they have seen me. This is where my issue begins. While at a bar (about 100 yards from my house) I ran into a particularly friendly person who said it was his birthday and if he sees any pig he's going to pop one off in them. He then reached behind his back. The friend that was with me opened his eyes about as wide as softballs and said "what was that?" The person in question reached behind his back again. Being in bad position to see what the guy had I made small talk and soon headed for the restroom. My buddy was about 2 seconds behind me and entered practically hyperventalating. The guy had a gun. (shiney revolver to be exact, he was quite adimant about that) A quick call to the local PD ended with 6 Officers tackleing the guy. One of which was a friend, and quite frankly, I think him sitting on anybody should be considered deadly force! But after a quick trip to the station to file a report, the situation was over. The officer taking the report making the comment to my buddy "That guy's lucky you saw it instead of him (talking about me), he could have shot him in the head." I smiled and noded at his ignorance of my sheriff's policy. While state law allows me to carry, it requiers that I have premission of my deparment head, the sheriff. He has a stict policy that corrections does not carry off duty. The idea here, that corrections cannot be trusted to be responsable. My argument is to stop hireing crappy people that can't be trusted, and get rid of the ones we already have, and the issue is solved. But for the sake of argument lets listen to how this could have gone worse: The guy recognised me from the Jail. Weather I saw him or not, I cannot run faster than bullets. So he shoots me. He also noticed that a guy walked in with me and assumed that he was a cop. Now my buddys dead too. Oh, lets throw in there that a few of the bystanders were hit too, heck there was 20+ people in a relatively small area. Now I can't help what I can't see. But if I was armed (not advocating drinking while carring here) and did notice him, don't I at least have a fighting chance? Who's fault is it if I saw him and was killed because I was unarmed? I wonder what would happen if my buddy suvived, told the family and they sued the sheriff for putting me in danger. This is the exact reason that Illinois needs a conceled carry law. Our own Sheriffs can't even be trusted to allow their officers to protect themselves.

December 13, 2011, 02:37 PM	#3
Brant Member Join Date: December 10, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 32	No Kidding. As I recall, there was a federal law put into place under Bush that allowes all officers and retierd officers to carry regardless of where they are. It was one of theose things put in place after 9/11 to allow more people to respond and assist where nessisary. It covered everyone exept corrections. We might be talking about the same law, I'm not sure. Most of the officers where I live that do know about my dept. policy are of the mindset "if your not stupid with it, we dont care." But some departments go to the extream. Some officers can't handle the fact that they're employed to protect people and their rights.

December 13, 2011, 02:55 PM	#4
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	There is a group from NJ I believe, made up of cops and attoneys that travel the country educating departments about the LEOSA. It appears that many departments learned the hard way and have paid dearly in law suits. I believe it was Chicago, (but may be wrong about the city) had to pay $200,000 for a false arrest suit for violating the LEOSA. San Fernando, California ending up paying $44,000 in another violation of the LEOSA case. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

December 13, 2011, 02:57 PM	#5
Fishing_Cabin Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2010 Posts: 720	Brant, sounds like everything went well for you. Here locally, while they do understand that LEOSA and its updates do exist and are law, they only specifically allow conceled carry within your jurisdiction. Anywhere outside of our jurisdiction, and its on the officer him/herself to ensure that he is legal in every way. It was brought up in a meeting about adding a note to the back off the photo id stating that "this officer meets the requirements of LEOSA" or whatever is needed to meet the legal wording, and a telphone number listed for communications to confirm the ID. It was refused. Even a concealed carry permit is no good, because we are only allowed to carry a firearm we have qualified with, and has been approved by the dept, even off duty. kraigwy, I hope those lawyers and officers that you mentioned traveling around help departments to adopt policies more in line with LEOSA in respect to their own officers. Last spring when I qualified, the instructors said that NC still hasnt decided on what to do about the LEOSA improvement act of 2010. Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; December 13, 2011 at 03:08 PM.

December 13, 2011, 05:37 PM	#10
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	I guess if it were me I would look for another job in a different state. Probably not the best but good luck changing the corruption that is Illinois. Conversely you could suck up to the boss and get him to grant you special permission behind the back of your coworkers (I understand that is how things work in corrupt societies). Just be real quiet about this. Think of it like this; it is your life and they are already asking you to do a crappy job for low pay. Why should you take even more risks? If your coworkers valued their lives as much as you do than they would do the same. __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

December 13, 2011, 04:00 PM	#7
hermannr Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2011 Posts: 730	You state another reason IL needs a carry provision in their law. I am not a LEO or retired LEO, but I do live in a (OC and CC) carry friendly state. I cannot imagine being a corrections officer and not being able to defend yourself. That is just crazy. (or a retired LEO that couldn't carry) Because most of the people here are connected to LE in some way, I have a question for you...the annual training requirement for the LEOSA. Do you really think that is necessary? If so, why?

December 13, 2011, 05:01 PM	#9
hermannr Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2011 Posts: 730	Kraig: I agree and understand the polico side. Here in WA we have no government required "training" to obtain a CPL, and no license requirement for OC, but I don't know anyone with a CPL that has no training at all. You train to the level you are comfortable with, works for me. "One size fits all" never works as expected. I would think that a retired LEO would be at least be considered as proficient as when he/she were actively employed. I still cringe just thinking of a corrections officer that cannot carry for his own self protection... This has to change.

December 13, 2011, 11:46 PM	#11
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	Wait a minute... you're a corrections officer, not a police officer. Unless I'm mistaken, correctional officers are not allowed to carry in Illinois period. Isn't that what Moore is suing about? I mean I thought that's what his whole lawsuit was about...

December 14, 2011, 12:09 AM	#12
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	Um, if you are really law enforcement, and not corrections -- aren't you covered by the LEOSA? If you're not covered by the LEOSA, then you're not law enforcement but something else. I'm not sure I see any reason why you should have any more right to carry than any citizen of the state of Illinois. I'm sorry, but I am still angry about the LEOSA. Not angry that it passed, but angry about the duplicity of the law enforcement profession as a group. When the law was being debated through Congress, LEOs hit ALL the gun forums hard, asking for the support of gun owners to get the law passed. The prevailing lie (oops, "line") was, "This is just a first step, a toe in the door. If you help us get this, we'll help y'all get national concealed carry for everyone." Well, we all did our part, and the LEOSA became law. Now, where's all that LEO support for national citizens' concealed carry we were promised? "Chirp." No more special groups. If you're not an LEO and you want to be able to carry, get on board and support the RKBA for everyone, not just your particular clique. Last edited by Aguila Blanca; December 14, 2011 at 12:19 AM.

December 14, 2011, 12:51 AM	#14
bitttorrrent Senior Member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Chicago Posts: 703	My Dad had that "retired leo" concealed carry license I guess. He could carry even in Chicago, but never really pushed it. I live in Chicago and Chicago cops are just trained to be hard as.es. No offense to those that are police in chicago, but I have been harased by them since i first moved here after college. They treat everyone as a criminal. Anyway, I can't wait for a concealed cary law in IL. More people need to sue them cause they are broke and can't defend all the cases.

December 14, 2011, 10:48 AM	#15
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	I had a cop pull me over on LSD for speeding and I also had an expired sticker but he was pretty cool, just gave me the speeding ticket and advised me to get the sticker taken care of soon. I also was once in a sorta bad part of Chicago.. I was helping my dad with the computers at his business and it was late at night so I went out to get whatever - Macs or White Castle or whatever, and I pulled into a BK. This is somewhere around Ashland and Paulina... I was going down a one way street and I pulled into a BK. And it was like no one was working at the BK... no one took my order, when I pulled forward I saw there where about 10 or 12 guys hanging out outside the drive-through window. So I did a U-turn right there in the BK lot, and when I exited (I was going pretty fast by that time) I turned the wrong way on the one way, a cop passed me, I did another U-turn. He was at a stop light and I stopped at the same light. I rolled down my window to explain, but he just shook his head and rolled his eyes. A second later he lit em up and was hauling ass somewhere - I'm assuming someone got shot or stabbed. He didn't have anytime to mess around with writing a ticket to someone who did a U-turn.

December 14, 2011, 12:50 PM	#17
Brant Member Join Date: December 10, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 32	C0untZer0: "Wait a minute... you're a corrections officer, not a police officer. Unless I'm mistaken, correctional officers are not allowed to carry in Illinois period." Not true, correctional officers are peace officers which in the state of Illinois, are allowed to carry in performance of duties, which as stated in the original post, is completely defined by the dept. head. In this case it would be the sheriff. Aguila Blanca: "Um, if you are really law enforcement, and not corrections..." Brush up on Illinois law, or take my word for it, but state law defines a peace officer as a Police officer, Probational officer, Correctional officer, and even security guards in some instances. Again, peace officers are allowed to carry in performance of bla bla bla. "I'm not sure I see any reason why you should have any more right to carry than any citizen of the state of Illinois." Why should I? Because these guys see me on the streets, in street cloths and recognize me. Because as a correctional officer, just like a police officer I have a bit target painted on my back. Because the criminal element in our society has a special hate for all things that have to do with law enforcement, including corrections. These guys know who I am, the general area I commute (our officers have to live within the county), and if other officers can't keep their mouths shut, these guys know I have a family. its not hard to get online, look up my name, and get my license plate number or divers license info and find out where I live. it took me a total of an hour to find it myself. Thats why corrections have more of a need to carry. I'm not disparaging the need for anyone else to carry, but walk into someone you had to taze a few months ago because he was resisting. Walk into that guy on the streets where he is more likely to be armed (just at the fact that he's a felon anyway) and your not because you actually follow the law. Again, I cannot run faster than bullets, although, that would be a cool trick.

December 14, 2011, 01:07 PM	#18
Brant Member Join Date: December 10, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 32	I'll do the leg work for you. As a matter of fact, for you guys questioning the ability of corrections to carry, or their status as law enforcement, I'll look up and post the statute tonight.

December 14, 2011, 01:51 PM	#19
Fishing_Cabin Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2010 Posts: 720	Though I am not that familiar with the law in Illinois, in many states, and probably most on some level, corrections officers, "usually have some level of peace officer status." The reason that I put it in quotes is it can vary by agency and location. Why? The corrections officers not only have to deal with those inmates while within the wall, but they, at least locally, do transport duties for court, and between institutions, work details, etc, and need to have some level of arrest powers to keep the inmates from escaping, and to also arrest them afterwards if the do. Also in some areas the corrections officers may investigate crimes within the walls and file charges as well. As to who can carry where, why and how...The politicians decide that unfortunatly, and my opinion doesnt matter in the end. I wish it would be equal and easier accross the board personally. Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; December 14, 2011 at 01:57 PM. Reason: clarification

December 14, 2011, 02:20 PM	#20
ripnbst Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2010 Location: Spring, TX Posts: 1,552	I don't care to read all the above posts so I don't know if this has been addressed already or not but LEO, Active Military, Corrections, the Sheriff himself, doesn't matter, if you are consuming alcohol it is illegal to carry. Period. What you are saying (in this instance) is "because he is breaking the law, so then shouldn't I also be allowed to break the law?" My answer in unequivocally no.

December 14, 2011, 03:30 PM	#23
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	There are plenty of instances where Chicago cops have been off-duty in an establishment that serves alcohol, where a person commited acrime and the off-duty police officers intervened and in some cases used their weapons. I don't think that guns and alcohol are a good mix but I've never seen an officer procecuted under those circumstances for consuming alcohol and carrying and or deploying their firearm. The only case that I am aware of something similar happening is when some bad Chicago cops got drunk in a bar, initiated a conflict with some other patrons and even went so far as to draw their pistols and pistol whip some people. I don't know whatever happened in that case - I heard it was being referred to Internal Affairs. But this is totally different from what's being talked about here, and like I said - off duty cops in bars that have drawn their weapons to intervene in a crime were never charged with anything concerning drinking abd carrying or deploying their weapons.

December 14, 2011, 07:07 PM	#24
Brant Member Join Date: December 10, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 32	Alcahol isn't the point. Since we're past the "corrections part," I am NOT advocating drinking while carrying a weapon! If I was carrying a weapon, (because the sheriff for some reason had a change of heart), I either would not drink or bring another correctional officer as a designated driver and designated armed personnel. We'd rotate as needed ever time we went out, but this would be a small price to pay for protection. As far as cook county goes, it might as well be a different state. Their courts might as well be California's 9th circuit. As many of you already stated a retired officer is allowed to carry under LEOSA. So as far as I'm concerned, he should have been ok. Now as far as jail superintendent, or "Chief," that dose not mean he is the head of the department. With county corrections, the jail superintendent is not the official head of the department, the Sheriff is. The ONLY reason my chief can carry is that he is a Lieutenant with our deputies. If we ever got a new sheriff, and he wanted a new jail superintendent, my Chief would not be fired, rather, he would return to patrol in his lieutenant position. As far as Mr. Moore goes, I'm pretty confidant he could travel armed anywhere south of Cook, and possible Will, counties and not be harassed as long as he had his credentials on him. OK, I know for a fact that officers in Hopkins park in Kankakee county consider you a lethal threat if they see so much as a FOID card, but thats most likely it.