Hunter dies after his stand is pulled down...

[woodguru]

I know a guy right here in Eldorado County that had a long private road he keeps a chain across. At one point he had a sign that said trespassers will be shot. The sheriff told him he had to take that down, he laughed and told him he didn't think it was fair not to warn someone before you shoot them, and added, allright, whatever, I have a backhoe and 40 acres. Bottom line is the guy grows pot, he invests a lot of money on all the right fertilizers and water PH balancers and works harder than most do on a full time job. Trespassers are those looking to steal his hard work and he has an attitude about that. It's thieves we are talking about no matter what it is the property owner is doing. It would be the same if he was growing legitimate ginseng with a high harvest value. Actually this guy stays within the boundaries of 20 plants so he doesn't get messed with by authorities, he's had the sheriff dept out inspecting his operation to make sure he isn't over the semi legal limits.

I don't agree with indiscriminate things like claymores, you have to have a visual on em.

I'll give you an example of protecting your property. My friend overheard a local sleazebag talking to a friend in a bar. He had been in my house doing drywall for the company I hired. He was talking to someone about the sheer raw value of some of the stuff I had in my house and the haul that could be made ripping me off.

The guy he was talking to told him he was idiotic even talking about it, he said Keith would kill anyone involved with touching his stuff, and added he has some of the baddest guns you've ever seen and knows how to use them. My friend told me that the underground word on messing with my stuff was that it was sheer suicide, that I'm totally psychotic. Most other people would have been ripped multiple times once the word was out that there was $400k worth of stereo equipment along with hundreds of thousands in coins and gems, and a bonus of some of the finer guns in the county. Getting ripped off in a small community is usually by someone with knowledge, preventing it is instilling fear of consequences that overcomes the greed of taking something that's not yours because you think you can get away with it.

[markj]

but hearing the troubles you go through is enough to give second thoughts.

Isnt that bad here in Iowa, kid gets picked up and dropped off at the end of the driveway for school. No neighbor mowing at 6:00am (had this happen 3 times a week by this guy the short time I lived in city). I can go out on my deck and hear the birds tweet, no sounds of cars, buses, or gangbangers. Neighbors all know each other and help out, we all get together often and socialize at the fire station when we have pancake feeds. I can raise steers and pigs for my pwn consumption and to sell. Have a 60 ft barn I have old classic cars in, some are being restored by me and my son.

We ride our dirt bikes and atvs, horses, snowmobiles.

Totally unlike city living.

[woodguru]

My wife and I were talking about this and what we would do if someone trespassed on our four acre house and property. She has no problem with the fact that I am going to have one heck of an attitude and the guy or guys would be rudely asked to leave.

We got to talking about how you'd handle it on a much larger property that possibly isn't your residence so you aren't around all the time.

Someone builds a stand in one of your trees. You carefully word a sign to put in the stand, it sounds serious and matter of fact, no bluster and outrage.

While you are hunting I'm having my way with your vehicle.
When I'm done I am coming for you, the sheriff's department doesn't have the resources to handle illegal trespassing but they will come to take care of an unfortunate shooting incident.
See Ya!
I'll leave you alone if you are leaving my property when I do.

My wife thought it would actually be fun to watch to see how long a guy could sit there after reading that sign, it would be humorous.

[markj]

what we would do if someone trespassed on our four acre house and property

Heck you can see the other end of that get 150 or more then you will have a good time.

[woodguru]

The point I was making was that people can relate to the idea of someone trespassing on a little residential property because you just don't do that, but make it a few hundred or thousands of acres and it's all of a sudden alright to do what you want on it? Not to mention getting snotty when told to leave.

[k31]

me and a freind found a climber stand only 100yards from my back yard it was my father in laws land so i didnt want to get upset with them until i called him to see who he let back there very shortly after calling him i climbed it about 25 feet the poplar hugged the tree and slid my self down and left a note explaining property boundries and that my kids play in the back yard he was hunting over and the no trespassing signs he past on the way in
we didnt have any more problems from with the stand until i tried to take it down
i can see why he left it there it was a cheapo gorilla stand but i didnt have to buy it

[ritepath]

We had a small farm when I was growing up, and leased two adjacent farms to ours. I was always finding stands on both of these (owners lived in Florida and didn't give people permission to hunt). The easy thing for me was to just shoot them with a shotgun early in the season.

I remember one year after giving up a lease on one of the properties the guy that picked up the lease also started "renting" the property (The owner died, son took over) tried to run me off my own land. He come up to me I was about 75 yards deep into our property bow hunting in a stand. He come up to the stand and motioned for me to come down. So I did, leaving my bow up in the stand. He said "You know I don't allow hunting on this property right?" I responded. "Yeah, I'd say so considering you've been on my land since you crossed that fence." He never said another word just turned around and crossed the fence.

He seemed to have a problem with the fence, a few other times we had run ins with him. One ended up costing him 6000 bucks in damages and court costs. Once we ended up fencing in a camper he parked on our land. I suppose the fence was a little hard for him to realize it was there. But for some reason it kept the cattle in our property just fine.

[armoredman]

Lots of wild stories, NOT saying anyone is making this stuff up in any way shape or form! I have never tree stand hunted, (Southern AZ doesn't have trees high enough or sturdy enough!), and my hunting experiance is minimal, infintesimal, actually. If I was a landowner with these areas, and had resources, there are a few things I might try.
In the Middle Ages many different passive defenses were used around castles, other than the obvious moat. One good one was to bury large, and I mean BIG clay pots in the ground, so as a siege engine moving forward would cave it in and fall over forward. If it's your land, you would have the right to bury items, especially something non threatening like a clay pot on the land around your gates. Just make sure it's strong enough to let someone WALK over it. Leaving a dangerous booby trap on your land like claymores or nail filled boards, that's the type of thing that would probably get you wearing orange for life, not just hunting season, depending on your state laws. I would check carefully, just to be sure.
I wish all of the best of luck in ridding your lands of the unwanted!

[mdd]

Armoredman: At least in KS, any type of device or structure implemented for the specific purpose of damaging property or causing personal injury without the landowner's presence to monitor the event and provide specific warning is illegal and opens massive liability to said landowner. In other words, a wolf in sheep's clothes is still a wolf & a booby trap with soft/smooth edges is still a booby trap.

SIXGUN: My reason for posting is to address you specifically. I'm torn over your posts and with good reason which I'll try to relate in as non-confrontational manner as possible. So that you may understand my point of view let me state that my family & I all farm/ranch for a living. To put food in our children's mouths and keep a roof over our families at night, we tend to our land & cattle very carefully. We know quite well that meticulously sustaining & maintaining our land will allow us to continue the way of life we love for our lifetimes and beyond. I personally am walking the same land that my great-grandfather walked; a man whom I missed the privilege of meeting by nearly a decade. My family has farmed for as far back as I can find records and this way of life is in my blood deeper than you could ever understand. I know the disgust you speak of with your leased acreage because I could take you to any of a hundred places and show you evidence of the same disrespect although possibly not as brazen or destructive.
The difference is that you can never understand the deep-rooted ties to land that people like my family & I have. You refer to that leased acreage as "your" land and that feeling comes from the work you put into it and the pride you take it seeing it clean and well-kept. Imagine what it is like when land is your life & livelihood, not your getaway spot. When my family & I get together at Christmas time, our table will represent control of almost 35,000 acres of land across three counties. That land is our life.
Here comes the part you won't like. To people like me, people like you are a bigger enemy than drunks sneaking in & leaving beer cans. People like you are only interested in land for recreational use and have no concern over whether it "pencils" or not. You visit for a few weeks total out of the year and then go back to your life in the city. We in production agriculture cannot compete with the likes of you when it comes to purchasing land. We have to make it cash flow whereas you do not. Land for us is a necessity; for you, a luxury. We raise the grain and meat that feeds you and your children then you come buy the very land we rely on to provide you with the abundance of food you've all come to believe is a right. Oh surely a quarter section (160 acres) isn't going to matter, right? Wrong. When it's 1,000,000 of you leaving your city lives to buy luxury real estate across the rural areas of America, that adds up to real acres and real losses in production. I attended a land auction two years ago where we were outbid on a 490 acre parcel of cattle pasture. Our final bid was for half a million dollars. We have known the attorney bidding in proxy for many years and he apologized to us after the auction for bidding against us. A Texas oil man had hired him to buy the ground in his stead but never gave an upper price limit, only instructions to "buy it". There is no oil on that land whatsoever. It was bought so he could have a place to hunt when he felt the inkling. We can't compete with money like that. Mark my words that if this trend continues, one day you will find the shelves of your grocery store sparsely filled and what is available will be tremendously expensive. Look around your life & take note of how many of your necessities are really just luxuries and extravagances. How many things could you honestly live without and not miss more than in passing? A helluva lot. Four things you cannot live without are food, water, clothing, & shelter. Destroying agriculture takes away half of those and converting production acres to luxury acres destroys agriculture.
Please don't misunderstand me on this post. This is not a personal attack in any way because I can relate to your disdain for trespassers and vandals as well as anyone on this board. It sounds as though your leased acreage was practically waste ground before you and your friends intervened. Yours is not the type of land of which I speak; your kind IS that of which I speak. In your case, your money has improved a parcel of land. In most cases here, it simply takes away from my way of life & ability to produce your food.

[woodguru]

I hear what you are saying, last year we looked at buying a 1200 acre working cattle ranch that had 800 attached acres of BLM land, 2000 total. The owner ran 700 head of feeders a year. It had 400 in alfalfa and 400 in irrigated pasture, 1800 feet of lake front, two houses, three barns, weigh shed, equipment shed, etc.

He was willing to come down to $1.6 million cash to the person who would buy it and lease back to him to keep doing what he'd done all his life.

Northern California that is a steal. The ground squirrels were so thick he charged hunters $120 a day to shoot as a side income.

For me I wanted a working situation to keep the place up so I could have a fantasic place to hunt that wasn't sitting empty, three rivers, jeep trails, it was a paradise. Tags for deer, elk, bear, and mountain lion were grandfathered into the property as owner.

My heart was breaking for this guy getting hammered by the economy to where he had come down from $4.5 million to a quarter of that. I had my wife convinced between our accountant and I that it was a win win for the rancher and us to have an ownership that allowed him the cash he had needed to operate as normal. We weren't ready to pony up that much cash and it didn't work for us to finance it for him. Next year I am going to see if he still has the property and make some kind of deal that keeps him on his ranch, he was in danger of losing it.

I know I sound like what you have a problem with but it was quite a bit different.

[shortwave]

I've not read all the posts so forgive me if I cover old ground.

mdd,
I understand your deep rooted feelings towards your land as it is your lively-hood. Your family of past generation's as well as your current family has depended on that property for many years and that property ' it's your life'.

I do however have a question for you.

Are you more upset with the people that live around you that own this land that lease it to the hunters as you are with the hunters that lease it?

Around these parts, seems as though every parcel of land that comes up for sale/lease is the result of the farmer passing away, the kids ending up with the property and have no interest in the hard work farming intails but rather the easier/faster money for either selling or leasing the property. Doesn't matter that that very property is what they grew up on or the fact that the property provided the roof over their head and out clothes on their backs.

I get more PO'd at the property owner rather than the leasor. But in todays society its all about the quick $$$.

The land leasing thing is just now becoming a big thing around here and you can usually tell the parcels of land that are leased for recreation as the line fences aren't maintained, there's usually more trash accumulateing on property etc., and much more trespassing.

As far as tree stands I've found on my property, I just take em down and keep them. Got quite a collection myself and I don't think my brothers have ever bought a tree stand.
My property is well posted and trespassing is a constant problem. I might add that its not usually people coming from 'the big city' doing the trespassing but people that live around here that own parcels of land to small to hunt on, that are to sorry to travel to public hunting and they've been caught trespassing/trashing their neighbors property. Word gets around on these P'sOS and they'd probably have to travel two to three counties over to hunt cause of their sorry reputations.
When I catch a trespasser, I take their picture. When I first walk up to them, my cellphone is in picture mode and the 1st thing I do is raise the phone and take the picture. The 2nd thing I do is listen to the lame excuse as to why they are there(some of them are rather comical). The 3rd thing is to inform them that I'll keep their pics. on file and if I catch them again, I'll prosecute.

[deathrider]

as far as booby traps, the only thing I believe is legal is animal traps, you cant help it if some trespasser steps on one. but I am not sure on laws how often you have to maintain your traps? once a week to check maybe?

I had a friend interested in using my land earlier in the year, until he was trying to hike into the entrance & saw bear tracks, he lost all interest. he was looking for a place to play an instrument that wouldnt disturb his neighbors, & he is a convicted felon & cant have a gun, so he said he would try to find somewhere safer to play. he truely freaked out over finding bear tracks.

the bad thing is he was on my neighbors land, he went too straight, & didnt make a right turn. but if a neighbor had saw him & he explained what he was doing & who I was they would have helped him showing him where my boundary was, & he had a signed piece of paper from me for him to be there to look it over. plus a very crude not to scale map hand drawn. I have since offered on several occasions to show him, & I get the same reply, thats ok, thanks anyway, he doesnt want any part of being around possible bears. lol.

this thread has been interesting, I will tend to side with landowners, I dont believe in claymores or deadly resolutions, for trespassers unless they pull or point a weapon. property isnt really worth a life.

one fine point that has not been mentioned! SQUATTERS RIGHTS! if they openly, take posesion, you could lose your land, it is up to the land owner to make sure he doesnt allow anyone to "squat" my problem wasnt a real squatter, but if I didnt walk the land peridocially, then person responsible could claim they have been there "X" number of years, it was a huge tree house, with a commode, & they had kerosene can for a heater, they could easily claim it was a "house" or "dwelling" & have met all the rules to take possesion & file for a title & legally take my land. if something went that far I would contact the 1% bikers I grew up with, & worked with & let them have some "fun"! I worked full time & part time in a bike shop for 15 years run by a club member, & am considered almost family, I had a falling out with owner over a couple small issues & I quit, removing parts from my bike & allowing a "prospect" to use my parts, or allowing a customer to test my expensive race brakes, & me without a scoot, so prospect patch in. a prospect while prospecting has to ride his bike to every meeting no matter what, & instead of taking a new part off shelf & letting guy charge it, he would remove used part off my bike & let guy use my part until he could find a used part, or to buy a new part. or like my brakes, he didnt keep instock, but he would try to help a sale to allow customer to use my brakes on their bikes a couple days, & then they would buy, but in meantime I had no brakes, but they stayed flushed & & he gave me the fluid, but I got sick of reinstalling my parts, that happened too many times & a couple vacations, & me with a bike, but not able to ride it, so I got ticked & quit, but I still consider him my best friend.

Randy

[Hawg]

property isnt really worth a life.

Not worth going to prison over but some of these people are wasting good air.

[Art Eatman]

Folks need to remember that no matter how annoying trespassing is, it's a crime which is NOT a capital offense. Macho chest-beating about the "What I'll do..." is very childish--and can quite probably lead to a felony charge.

[sixgun67]

mdd, I see what you are saying. I must make a few things clear about the property that we lease.
In the area that I live, not big city, I'm not rich, matter of fact, layed off for over a year and a half. The four of us clubmembers together probably don't make $130k a year, when working.
We cannot hunt in the area that I live, as not one farmer or landowner will allow anybody with a gun on their property. Seriously, if you aren't the landowner's son or son's best friend, you are SOL. The landowners themselves are why we must get together and lease property in order to be able to hunt. Which is why, if I wanna hunt, I have to travel. Two of my club members live within a few miles of our land, and some of us are on that land 35 or more weekends per year, camping, fishing, hunting, cooking out, or otherwise riding our trails on our 4 wheelers.
The property that we lease has lain dormant for almost 50 years. During the 50s and 60s, landowners dad built 5 large ponds for public fishing, much like the modern carp ponds/tournaments in our areas today. After owners dad passed away, leaving the land to his son, land was allowed to sit idle for all these years. Son doesn't live anywhere near the property, so it was almost a smorgasboard of freedom for tresspassers, who burned to the ground 3 small log cabins that were built to house vacationers. That was the beginning of our landowner's headaches.
This land was not used for any kind of agriculture. Matter of fact, when we offered to lease, we were responsible for informing the owner that he COULD lease agriculture rights also. He didn't know that. Now, he leases agriculture rights for what few open acres that there are, and hunting rights, simultaneously.
The way I look at it is this, hardnosed or not----If the land was so valuable as to warrant 30 and 40 years and more worth of tresspassing, then why didn't even ONE INDIVIDUAL try and lease the property before us? Our landowner was not even aware that he could lease it, until we told him. So I have no sympathy for the tresspassers. They have gotten a free ride for all of these years. No more, as long as I can help it.
The only persons hurt/damaged/ticked off in my scenario are the criminals. The landowner is so happy with us that he gives us a $2 per acre yearly discount, and always tells us how his phone isn't ringing off the hook about people on the land, because we the hunters, are living up to our agreement(That ANYBODY could have entered into, within the past half century, instead of sneaking in to do as they please).
Regards,
sixgun

[TXAZ]

Art Eatman made a good point: "... "What I'll do..." is very childish--and can quite probably lead to a felony charge."

+1 to Art

There is case history on this, although I'm not sure how to look up legal cases. There was a young man ~ 20 who got Pi SS'd off at another in Phoenix AZ a few years ago. Unfortunately, he had posted online he'd like to see the guy dead. Some time passed, I think about 3 or 4 months, then there was another random meeting that became a confrontation. The other guy died. The prosecutor somehow found out about the online note / threat / venting, then changed the charges to a planned, premeditated murder, even though the witnesses indicated the other (decedent) actually started the fist fight.
20-life is a very long time for premeditated murder (vs. 0 or 1-5 for a much lesser charge) for being really stupid on Facebook, TFL or cyberspace in general.

[zachkuby87]

I know in mn its ilegal to do permanent stands on public land and from research that means u put it up and take it down everyday. I found this out because me and my brother hunt public land together every year and a dnr officer saw us walking into the woods the night before opener with portable stands and told us if we set them up and leave em just over night he was taking em so we asked what we should do about the rest we always see he said take em down... so that's what we do if a stand isup more than a day or two we take it.. as for us we use climber stands and we head in 2 hours before sunrise and set up.. got 3 deer this year within 20 minutes of opening.

[k31]

thank you mdd
i dont run cattle and to be honest dont have land my self me my wife and two kids just moved in with my mom in utah so i could go to school for a while
we moved from west virginia today mom and i had a perty good disagreement about how i am taking care of my family. right now i am laid off probably till the weather breaks, i pipeline, some work in bad weather and some companies dont.
any who so we had an argument, in my time off i have been coyote hunting and trapping you dont need any tags or license for coyotes just a utah trapper idea if you trap. the dogs hold a 20$ bounty out here.
she got upset because my wife and i chose to have a simple life we mend our bluejeans, we gift wrap in the same paper we used the year before, when food is hard to come by i go out and get a rabbit and trap a yote, meat and 20 for veggies and dessert
no television an old truck and 1 newer car for the kids
back home we find ramps, sang, Marells, and even eat squirrel. we some what lived off the land. I still had a job and didnt make much but we are a happy family and simple. i have learned alot about my self since coming home to utah she said we are living a mediocre life and should have more of the finer things in life.
folks waist money on cars on food on appliances all just to keep up with the jonses. folks here know water is scarce and recognize that they live in a desert but pay thousands for a green yard and refuse to walk on the grass???? thank you for standing up for folks that use the land for more than a holiday. i hate to see people squander the land that the government has made public. but dont come on my families land and pretend that it doesn't matter cause your just one person.i think many of us would be up set if our land is trespassed on, i also think that most any of us would let people on our land if they asked and promised to hold the same standards for it that we do. i have let many people hunt the land behind my house we trade schedules and know where each other is set up some its helpful too
i took plenty deer that people have pushed my way while they are getting to there set up
in hunter safty we are taught to ask and even to share or game with the land owner
dont use more than is needed dont squander what you have and never takewhat isnt yours. i am not meaning to attack those that have land just to hunt but am just pointing out that some folks dont have the chance for 5 or 600 acres just to see it once every season. be happy with what you have 4 acres is plenty for rabbit deer fox and public land is more than enough

[hooligan1]

I guess every expectation and reaction has been written, the only conclusion for this thread is really,, that we're all sorry a hunter got killed....period...not much else to write about except that he was a brother hunter and will be missed). My condolences to the family...

[shortwave]

My condolences to the family...

+1 Hooligan1.

I stated what I do for trespasser's in my earlier post. I've had my share of run-ins with them.
A few of the run-ins include:
1:almost being shot twice myself as the trespassing hunters and I didn't know the other persons was there.

2:Trespasser shooting a deer which was no more than thirty yards below my brother and his 7yr. old son which were on a stand. Trespasser clearly saw them.

There have been other run-ins but those are a few that come to mind.

Every year during shotgun season, my brothers/nephews come here to hunt.
Even though I could care less about shotgunning for deer, I religiously take the first three days off work. The main reason I take this time off is to try and meet the 'attack of the trespasser' so my relation can have an enjoyable, safe hunt they've waited on since the previous year.
Every year, the first couple days is usually screwed up with one or more trespasser's.

Beside's our individual choice of hunting weapon, the second most important piece of equipment that each adult carries is our walkie-talkie's. Each brother has his own fav. spot they go to each year. They don't still hunt or move from that spot. We do that for safety purposes.

I post myself near the highly posted road where the trespasser's usually enter from. My job is to head off the blind trespasser's that can't see the multiple signs posted about every thirty feet. I know they're blind cause I always ask them when I stop them if they saw that sign/signs they just walked passed the answer is always 'NO'.. I literally watched one guy pull alongside the road, get out of his truck and get a garden rake out of the bed and tear down three signs. He then got back in his truck, drove passed where I was at(about 20 yds inside of woods,in clear view dressed in hunter orange) threw his hand up and waved. Since I live on a dead end road, I knew he would be back. Sure enough, here he came. Pulled his truck off the road where he had tore the signs down and proceeded to get ready for his hunt. While he was dressing I had the sheriff on the phone and had already given them his lic. plate # and when I expressed my state of mind to them, the dispatcher advised me not to approach him. I told the dispatcher I felt the guy might be impaired cause as I watched him tear the signs down he was staggering a bit and if he started down over the hill towards my brothers I would stop him. Between 5-10 mins. a cruiser pulled up and needless to say right in time cause this guy had just started into the woods. The only orange he was wearing was an orange ballcap.
After the LEO got this idiot to the road, he gave him a field sobriety test which the guy failed(its about 0800 ). He was arrested, truck impounded and gun confiscated. His hunting lic. were revoked for a certain time(can't remember) and I was awarded $500 for him ripping my signs down that were given to me by the sheriff's office. He was from town but was a relation to a neighbor that is a drug dealing, generation welfare POS with whom I've had trouble with before.

For those non-landowners, does this sound fun? I would never shoot someone for trespassing but will prosecute to the fullest extent. Just as I did when I lived in the city. If I caught you in the backyard and didn't know you, you're up to no good, period. If you were a kid, I threatened you with the 'big dog' and showed you the 'beware of dog' sign posted on the fence.

Having spent alot of my earlier years living in the city, in probably the roughest part of Cols. Ohio, I can tell you, you're more likely to get shot in town for simple trespassing than in the country. With the inner city crime rate, that's no surprise. People are scared in their own homes.
That being said, those from the city should remember that when they come to the country. If a farmer has 30 or 30,000 acres, thats his backyard same as your backyard in the city. How upset would you be if your neighbor cut a hole in your fence, letting your dog out cause it makes for a shorter walk for him/her to the bus stop/store etc.? You wouldn't want the neighbors kids installing a basketball hoop in your driveway without permission cause their driveway isn't big enough or installing their satelite dish on your roof cause there's just no reception at their house.
Wished some of the people that lived around here were forced to move to the inner city. With their lack of respect, they wouldn't last a week. Somebody would shoot them. They more than take for granted what they have with trashing up their own property as well as others.

Bottomline, it just boils down to respect.

You have certain 'bad elements' wherever you live. The inner-city, its the gangbangers, carjackings, drive-bys, constant gang turf battle's and the beautiful gang turf 'art' you see painted all over the garage walls, stores etc. and lets not forget the dope dealer

In the country, you have the occasional break-in, theft of certain farm chemicals thats also used in the production of making dope, you have to inspect your property for a new yearly marijuana crop...yes believe it or not alot of the smoke thats sold in the inner-city is grown on some poor old farmers land where he's to old to get to the back side of his property. Yea, once again, by those pesky ole trespasser's. Guess how much money it costs that poor old farmer trying to convince the courts he knew nothing about the dope. It happens.

Back in the old days, a good dose of rocksalt was used. Today, I'd suggest calling the sheriff. Also, whether one approachs a trespasser in the city or the country, it would probably be a good idea to have your backside covered. You never know what a stranger is up to or capable of.

[Art Eatman]

Seems like we've pretty much said all that needs to be said...