Not "should I shoot?" but "could I shoot?" That is the question.

[Sparks2112]

the predictive factors are in a book that is at work and I'm on Spring Break.

I should have stayed in academics :-(

[Gaxicus]

Mentioned earlier is that at my place, a home defense situation at night will likely have the intruders in the middle floor, with me in the basement, and my kids on the top floor.

I will have to "clear" the main floor to get to my kids.

While I may be defending my home and family (a defensive strategy) I will have to advance into the main floor to get to the upstairs to secure my kids (an offensive tactic). This is far different than herding everyone into a room, covering the door, and waiting for the police.

Since this is more of a psychological "could I?" thread rather than a legal one, I think it is important to discuss that at one point or another it may be necessary to advance from a defensive position and take or deny ground from/to the threat. I believe this to be a significant psychological shift that should really be part of the “could I?” self-discussion.

Getting troops to leave a bunker, trench, or foxhole and advance has been the subject of a lot of study, thought, and training since the beginning of ranged conflict. I think defensive firearm owners need to face it head on and become comfortable and resolved in their approach to this situation.

Stealth may also be important because it makes a lot of sense to achieve an advantageous position before announcing ones presence. Just yelling up the stairs to them that we have guns and the cops are on their way may result in them making hostages of my kids. I don’t plan on announcing my self until I have achieved entry to the main floor, have at least one other location to retreat to, and I have a BG in the sights. It would be nice if I can sneak to the kid’s rooms without incident and just sit tight with them till LE gets there but the layout of the house makes this incredibly unlikely.

I’ve seen on this thread where people who thought to employ body armor as “mall ninjas” and what not but if you must advance against the threat as I must, it makes a lot of sense, especially if your honey can cover the door to your room as well as mine can while you put it on. Mine sits under the bed ready to go. I can realistically be armed and armored in much less than 30 seconds.

The “Could I?” discussion applies to more than just “Could I shoot someone?” it applies to:

“Could I sit downstairs leaving my kids at the mercy of intruders while we wait for the police?”

“Could I leave a relatively safe position and advance against the threat to deny them access to other people in the house?”

“Could I keep quiet until I reach the other people in the house or achieve a decent position to protect them?”

“Could I coherently explain to law enforcement what and why I did what I did when they finally get there?”

“Could I resist attempts by law enforcement to get me to make statements before consulting an attorney?”

Thinking it through makes sense but even the best plans usually don’t survive first contact with the enemy. At least from a tactical point of view you will be clear as to what your goals are, what you can live with, and what you are willing to die for when your plan goes to hell in a hand basket.

From a moral/psychological point of view you will know what options are realistically open to you and have some alternatives in mind to get around your “sticking points”.

Being an analytical type A person, “thinking this through” came natural. The necessity of “feeling it through” became clearer as I started getting into some of the details. The bottom line is that I am much more comfortable and confident in my role as a defensive firearm owner. I hope my situation and experiences in finding the proper approach to it might be helpful to others here as well. I am sure others have plenty to contribute.

[Gaxicus]

Ginger-

I have a question. I've never had to shoot anything, so I'm wondering about the "freezing" being discussed, and if anyone can make an analogy to something I am experienced with, like driving, perhaps?

I’m just some guy typing away on a gun forum. I can claim to be anyone from anywhere. Ill do my best to give you my take on it but you need to do your part to get direct information from real and accountable sources. That said, here goes.

I believe the "freezing" you mention to be a result of the cumulative effect of many factors. A lot of effort has gone into methods of identifying and desensitizing people to “panic button” triggers for military, police, athletes, and even public speakers.

In my experiences and in my reading, there seems to be a general consensus that while these triggers are unique to the individual, there are some common things that come up in almost everyone.

It’s not just “panic button triggers” that must be addressed. There are habits that people develop from a very young age that can stampede through your panic triggers like a bull in a china shop. The most common is Fear Escalation or "Heaping".

My best short summary of fear escalation is that when something happens that evokes fear, the person will pile other fears on top of it. You mentioned driving. I’ll try a realistic example:
_________
Ah, quitting time. Out the door into a stinging snowstorm. She reaches the car and starts it up. The radio is awash in reports of traffic accidents and delays as she waits for the windows to defrost. “This sucks” she mutters to herself as she looks out the frosted windshield at the storm. The radio breaks in again with a report of an accident with injuries. “This really sucks” she says out loud, trying to remember which one of her friends lost a sister in a storm like this a few years ago.

“I can’t just stay here; the kids are waiting for dinner. I hope they made it home ok. Maybe Bill can grab something on his way home."

She fishes her phone out of her purse and dials home. “All circuits are busy, please hang up and try again” is all she gets. She tries again, and again, same results. Blurting out obscenities about phone companies, snowstorms, and about why she still lives here, she puts the car into reverse, it barely moves. She has to pull forward and back a few times to get enough momentum to break through the pile of snow behind the car.

Finally she eases the car into drive. Clutching the wheel with a big sigh she eases the accelerator down while trying to remember what Bill said about front wheel drives versus rear wheel drives in a slide. The continues talking to herself as she exits the parking lot.

“I wonder if the kids or Bill have been trying to reach me.” “How long has the service been down?” “God I hope they made it ok.” “Where did I put that phone?” “Oops can’t look a way from the road.” “Ok, just stay focused”. “Do I steer into a slide or out of one in a rear wheel drive?” “The freeways are usually the first to get plowed but oh man, I hope people aren’t being idiots and driving too fast.”

As she pulls on the freeway it pops into her head. “It was Candice’s sister!” she blurts aloud. “Oh how bad that must have been for her and her kids.” “How did her husband cope?” “Bill couldn’t get out the door for work if I didn’t get everything ready for him, how could he ever raise the kids alone?” “What if he remarried?’ “What kind of woman would he marry, one of our friends?” “I bet Amy would be all over him with her fake boobs and her stupid laugh.” “The kids would never.”

Whoosh! A semi speeds past her at 70MPH blasting heavy slush and ice into the side of her car. The car shifts and starts to slide sideways. She hears herself scream and feels her foot stomping the break. BOOM, boom boom BOOM boom.

Tap tap tap. “OMG what happened?” Tap tap tap. Her hand reaches for the window switch on its own. Tap tap tap. The icy window goes down revealing a police officer. He is saying something but it sounds like he is talking into a pillow.

“Mam, I am going to need you to pull your car over to the side of the road.”
______

Okay, with my terrible attempt of writing there I tried to illustrate how a typical person can escalate fears or “heap”. By the time the semi truck whooshed by she had dozens of fear triggers loaded with tension ready to trip. When the event happened they all went off causing a panic and a freeze.

Once she had made the decision to drive, the answer to the stress was to just focus completely on driving and not allow other fears into her head. “Just drive” should be the only thing she allowed herself to say to herself. Just drive as in I am only going to drive, the other stuff is beyond my control. I am just going to drive.

Triggers

Killing is a concept that is almost a universal trigger. It’s a huge thing no matter how grizzled you are. Firearms are lethal weapons and should be treated as such. To take the steam out of this monster, I think you should really look at it with both eyes open. Face it. There are many ways ranging from a shrink to game guide.

In lots of interviews with combat vets where the question comes up of how they can kill, the subject of hunting comes up almost immediately from those with hunting experience prior to military service. If you aren’t a vegetarian, it seems only ethical that you kill, dress, and eat your own meal at least once in your life. We all know that meat comes from animals, not Styrofoam and plastic wrap, but how many of us really own that? Hunting changes people, I think for the better, even if it is only once. A new respect for life and ones place in nature (which includes man by the way). There are plenty of people at hunters safety class that would be more than willing to tag along with you and a friend on your first hunt. Fowl or ruminant, professional guides can help a lot too.

The next trigger is kind of two sided. The threat of death of ones self or a loved one. I think it is a testament to the good in human nature that most people seem to make peace their maker or with “fade to black” when it comes to a threat to themselves much more easily than they do when it comes to a threat to their loved ones. Both can cause panic and stupid decisions or non-decisions.

If some criminal has a gun to your kids head and tells you to drop your gun, the question you need to ask yourself is what is he going to do to your kid once you are disarmed? I will almost always take the shot but it’s a decision you are going to arrive at your own way. The best way to deal with any fear is to take as much of the unknown out of it as possible. Look at it naked with both eyes open and see what you find.


As I said before, Im just some guy that can type and post stuff to a gun forum. If this stuff makes sense to you or not, its up to you to use credible, accountable people and information to address it for yourself. I hope this stuff can at least get you started.

Best wishes,

Gax

[Gaxicus]

Ginger-

I'm over being an accessory to my own victimization.

I just loved reading that. I obviously had some time on my hands today with all of the posts. Its just the best thing I read all day.

[Ian0351]

I would kill to defend myself, another or sensitive property. I have fired weapons in combat situations, am familiar with the emotional response and do not think that it would be any harder to rationalize/justify doing so to protect yourself/loved one/domicile than it is to protect "democracy" in a country that isn't interested in personal freedom. Just my $0.02... lots of good marines I served with did have some problems after taking the lives of people who were actively killing our brothers.

I don't want to look at the world like there is a scumbag around every corner and a rapist under every bed

Where I live there's a meth dealer on every corner and a child molester in every neighborhood, and as has been posted by the OP things are probably going to be getting worse before they get better. For that reason I am armed and ready.

[Gaxicus]

I have fired weapons in combat situations, am familiar with the emotional response and do not think that it would be any harder to rationalize/justify doing so to protect yourself/loved one/domicile than it is to protect "democracy" in a country that isn't interested in personal freedom. Just my $0.02...

What you said above about democracy is true but its weekness is also its strength. As stupid as "we the people" can get sometimes at least we can make these mistakes without needing a revolution to fix them.....I hope.

Marines have had to endure and pay for in blood the stupidity of politicians and civilians, foreign and domestic, since they were founded. They suffered it with pride and faith that we would eventually get it right. All I can say to you and your brothers is GOD BLESS THE MARINE CORPS and THANK YOU! Keep the faith. We'll get there.

Where I live there's a meth dealer on every corner and a child molester in every neighborhood, and as has been posted by the OP things are probably going to be getting worse before they get better. For that reason I am armed and ready.

Well, with you guys coming back theres going to be at least 10 marines for every meth dealer and probably one funeral for every child molester (just kidding but you know what I mean). 10 marines setting the example in every neighborhood is going to go a long way toward setting the neighborhoods and the politics in this country right. Mission isnt over yet I am afraid. Welcome home. We need ya here!

[Ginger]

Hey Glaxicus, glad I could make your day! I've spent alot of time thinking these things through, and continue to. I feel that having come from a profoundly anti-violence background, in which being anti-gun was just a fact without question, I've made radical strides, no pun intended. Fear gets on my nerves. Have I been fearful? As a victim of stalking, who has suffered profoundly as a result, yes. And let me tell you, the stalking, no matter how dangerous, was not nearly the problem that the fear it instilled was. Today I went grocery shopping. I grew up in the flatlands of Oakland and spent my college years as a pedestrian in SF. I know how to handle myself in public areas. Now I live in a seemingly safe and benign Idaho town, although there are violent criminal acts reported here occasionally. I should be posting this in the Parking Lot thread, but here I am. Keeping the thread in mind, I observed my surroundings, van parked next to my car, the guy just sitting in his car a few spaces down with the open drivers side door, the two loading groceries across the lane from me, my money on their being adequately armed, and I thought about the single most important safety feature to me in this parking lot, or any other for that matter, and it is unequivocally the absence of fear. I know to never allow myself to feel fear in the presence of Law Enforcement or BG's, just the same as around bees. I might be aware of risk, jeapardy, etc., but I always consciously control myself from feeling and therefore exhibiting any fear. I sincerely think my absence of fear in dangerous situations has saved my piddly little ar*e on many occasions. That said and out of the way, with all I've been through, I've been left with a sense of self righteous indignation. Will that be enough to let me pull a trigger when I need to? I don't know. I hope I don't find out. Unless I have to, in which case I hope to have practiced enough and visualized enough to be comfortable with my conscious gut level reaction to being intruded upon or violated in any way, which is to push back just harder than I got pushed, this is where you end and I begin, and it's a sacred place.

[Ginger]

Here's more. Are there other correlaries one can draw from to determine one's ability to fire when needed? This makes me consider the different times I've been attacked, and my own different responses. The first time was a gradeschool duel, pre-arranged, with a boy a bit shorter than me, 7th grade. Students and teachers looked on, as we faced each other. He punched me in the eye. I remember thinking as this went down how incredibly stupid it was. I stood there and didn't hit back, end of story, one day missed from school. Then a couple of domestic incidents, each time with someone bigger, stronger, and way more crazed. I didn't fight back, and probably escaped without further injury as a result. Then, a stranger mugging. I was cruising semi-loaded down a street in the south of France with a friend who didn't speak French. An Algerian chick rushed us from behind, grabbing my over the shoulder money belt which was foolishly exposed. This ticked me off. My ensuing stream of expletives being in French, my friend thought the other woman was my friend. But she had my ticket home, my passport, phone numbers, and money. So I chased her down, screaming my head off, and tackled her on a busy roadway, holding her down in oncoing traffic and recovering my stuff. I was highly angered. Since then I've twice been attacked by drugged out wacko females. Each time my reaction was utter calm, and concern for my attacker and what was wrong with them, and I did not engage. They were in each case removed by their respective associates. Is there any way to know from the variables of one's own responses one's ability to appropriately hold or not hold fire?

I would hope to fire when necessary. My fears as I presently contemplate using deadly force are primarily around injuring someone who didn't have ill intent. In a home defense situation I cannot imagine not firing at someone I have determined to be a legitimate intruder. I'm really looking for any information to determine if not firing could present as a real problem, because if it could be I need to address it or having firearms in my home is going to put me and my kids at greater risk.

[Gaxicus]

Hey Glaxicus, glad I could make your day!

Just one minor thing first. Its Gaxicus.

I can really tell by your story that you have turned a corner. You have a lot of inertia pulling you toward the way you were before but you have twice as much will and conviction to counter it.

When the intertia finally starts pulling with you instead of against you its like being reborn isnt it? Good day to be in the parking lot eh?

Take your time with the decision about the gun if you can. Stick with your convictions about your new direction. Right now it is your "single most important safety feature". You should be proud of yourself. Congratulations. Enjoy your victory.

Gax

[Ginger]

Thank you for the excellent advice, Gaxicus, and my apologies on my error. Got my CWP 11/05/08 and still haven't made a purchase, so you hit that nail on the head, and I am taking time growing in to my newfound enthusiasm. I just wish it was issued 11/04

[#18indycolts]

What you said above about democracy is true but its weekness is also its strength.

Not to stray from the point, but is this directed at the U.S.? Just curious because the U.S. is NOT a democracy. Again, not to stray, but if people knew what this country was founded upon, then we still wouldn't be saying that.

[vox rationis]

Not to stray from the point, but is this directed at the U.S.? Just curious because the U.S. is NOT a democracy. Again, not to stray, but if people knew what this country was founded upon, then we still wouldn't be saying that.

It is a Republic based on Constitutional Law! Do I get a twinkie!?

sorry, back on topic.

[Gaxicus]

Ginger-

I was highly angered. Is there any way to know from the variables of one's own responses one's ability to appropriately hold or not hold fire?

Most of the time people do one of two things. What has worked for them in the past (whether it was good or not, sometimes taking a beating is sadly a method some use for peacemaking), or what they have to.

From what I can read you spent a lot of time doing what "worked" for you in the past. In france and in your new life you are doing what you decided you had/have to.

(pours us both a cup of coffee and leans in)

A word of caution. That inertia can run deep. Some women I have known that were atracted to and were attractive to abusive men had a real hard time understanding how the transition to their new life was effecting their love life and sense of femininity.

As you get more miles under your shoes in your new life it can be a catch 22 depending on where you are that day. Sometimes a guy that would normally be buying you a drink wont give you a second look and sometimes you cant keep the guys that have been traditionally "your type" away with a can of bear spray. It can be rough on a persons self esteem and hard to stay the course on your new life.

It takes time for the new you to develop a "type of guy" that is attracted to you and you are attracted to. No guys are better than the wrong guy. It will take time for you to start attracting and be attracted to the right kind of guy. Times they are a changin......go for it.

I have to throw some gun stuff in here to keep it topical so I will just reiterate my advice to take your time getting a gun if you can. This is about you and where you are. Keep it about that. Your new self will be your best protection until you are ready.

[Gaxicus]

Not to stray from the point, but is this directed at the U.S.?

The orignial poster put the word democracy in quotes. I responded in with that in mind. Sheesh, like 5000 words today and you guys are bustin my bricks over this?

[Catfishman]

Post #16 bothers me. You shouldn't show someone a gun you can't use. If the other guy had been armed it would have been too bad.

Showing a gun can lead to bad things. I don't think someone should use a gun to win verbal confrontations. The old saying "don't point a gun at something unless you are willing to shoot it" is correct. Do you really want to shoot a guy for being a loud mouth. I would recommend staying in the car with the windows up or getting out and fighting.

If carrying a gun changes your personality leave the gun home.

[Ginger]

I don't know how to quote here yet, but in response to your post, Gaxicus, there is alot of truth to what you are saying. I went through a phase of only dating LEO's, or affiliates, then a long phase of not dating at all. I'm good with it all. I'm an odd bird, to say the least, so I don't think it is even as simple as all that. I'm older now, and comfortable with myself. I've got a dog I love, and am really good with that. Ultimately, I would never let a man or any other for that matter give me my own sense of safety or take my own sense of safety. And that is the way it should be. I'm self reliant in every aspect of the word, and anyone I'd be attracted to going forward is going to have to be secure in themselves and not looking for a good guy or a bad guy crutch in me. How's that for stretching the thread topic

What you may touch on though, however inadvertently, is what I would assess to be in some victims - read survivors - a need to be sure they can hold fire, just as much as a need to be sure they can fire.

[Gaxicus]

If carrying a gun changes your personality leave the gun home.

Amen to that brother. How do we get the soccer moms to leave their minivans home. They might be the sweetest woman in the world in person but wrap that machine around them and its PAYBACK TIME!

Mostly joking but not quite

[Gaxicus]

How's that for stretching the thread topic

There are so few women here, and even fewer I havent offended, that a little flexibility is in order at least in my opinion. You posted some stuff I think others will/should find interesting that is plenty topical.

[Ginger]

I hope the offense speaks more of others sensibilities than your lack thereof!

[Gaxicus]

I hope the offense speaks more of others sensibilities than your lack thereof!

Oh its both, I am a sexist neanderthal sometimes but I will fess up to it.

[Ian0351]

I posted democracy in quotes because the term is unilaterally misused in modern society... there has not been a true democratic state since ancient Greece, and they only had the idea correct, not the execution.

However, I was referring to our republic's fascination with spreading "democracy" at the muzzle of a gun, not the political realities of living in this, the greatest country in the world.

That said, I was drawing a corollary to the instinct/urge to defend oneself being stronger than the compunction to defend an idea or way of life, not trying to start an off-topic political discussion, there are other threads for constitutional banter.

[Mike Giambroni]

I can honestly say this is an open scab.
Several years ago when I was enlisted in the Marines I was faced with this same moral question. Could I shoot all those kids holding those AK-47s?
Some time ago the Albanian government set up a plan (pyramid scam) for the public to invest there life savings into the treasury and in return the government would build the investers new houses. The highest paying job there was $82 a month so this was a great deal to them. The govt. faulted on the plan and the investers were a bit upset. Needless to say police barracks armorys were ransacked and the public fought back. Seeing this the govt. made a public statement saying that it was the US then they turned the gun fire onto the embassy and the compound where the embassy workers lived in 6 digit homes.
The press say that there was no casulties but I beg to differ.
The parents came out at night and then they sent the children out during the day for supplies.
I had to sight in on a couple possible targets during the day.
The only possible positive thing that I have to say about my experience is that I lived another day to have married my beautiful wife and to have a full of life daughter which whom I would do it all over again for now.
The question shoud be do you believe in what you're fighting for.

[bugs]

I have a question. I've never had to shoot anything, so I'm wondering about the "freezing" being discussed, and if anyone can make an analogy to something I am experienced with, like driving, perhaps?

I think freezing on the trigger is somewhat analogous to other high pressure situations, esp. those where your life is at stake. So a person who would freeze on the steering wheel as the car went into a high speed slide, would be likely to freeze on the trigger too. But I suspect individuals will vary - depending on the way the situation/threat impacts that bundle of cross-wired matter between the ears.

IMHO, if a person has a history of freezing in high stress fast moving situations, having a gun for self-defense may not be a good idea.

[Ginger]

I thought about the single most important safety feature to me in this parking lot, or any other for that matter, and it is unequivocally the absence of fear. I know to never allow myself to feel fear in the presence of Law Enforcement or BG's, just the same as around bees. I might be aware of risk, jeapardy, etc., but I always consciously control myself from feeling and therefore exhibiting any fear. I sincerely think my absence of fear in dangerous situations has saved my piddly little ar*e on many occasions.

Here is an article on the fear phenomenon: http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/...dtoscentoffear

[Mike Irwin]

"Could I really shoot someone if I needed to?"

Anyone who is still struggling with that question and who is carrying a gun at the same time has absolutely NO business carrying a gun in my opinion.

They are a disaster waiting to happen, either to themselves or someone else.

The FIRST thing that anyone who entertains the thought of carrying a gun should do is some serious soul searching to answer that very question.

I did that back in 1986 in the months leading up to my 21st birthday. I concluded that yes, I could, and would, shoot someone who posed a threat to either me or someone I cared about, and I would do so unhesitatingly.


But if you (collective, not necessarily you specifically) are carrying a gun and are still wrestling with that question, I urge you to lock the gun in the safe and go to an alternative means of self defense until you come to a resolution.