Which is more of a stretch: .223 rem for whitetails or .243 win for elk? - Page 3

FrankenMauser · March 27, 2014, 11:03 PM

Quote:

from what I've read moose aren't nearly as tough as elk. i have a question to add to your question.

Elk aren't very tough. There are just a lot of hunters that like to shoot them in the guts or hind quarters, and then complain about how hard they were to kill.

Bezoar · March 27, 2014, 11:45 PM

243 is used on moose elk. its called getting a box of barnes tsx/ttsx or hornady gmx.

TimSr · March 28, 2014, 11:15 PM

"With proper bullet placement an elk will drop with a 22lr."

I disagree with the premise that there is any "proper bullet placement" on an elk with a .22lr.

Freakingstang · March 29, 2014, 08:49 AM

I took my first and only deer about 20 years ago now on my grandpas farm with a mini 14 and some of my uncles 55grain soft point. Range was about 100 yards it wasn't a huge white tail, but normal good sized one. I don't remember the weight as I was 14 or 15 at the time. My uncle used a 22-250 for white tails for 20+ years.

Shot placement and distance are key IMO. A little 223 or 22-250 is no joke. Speed kills. Would I attempt to take that shot today at 200 yards? No. I wish Ohio allowed high powered rifle for deer hunting. I don't hunt deer as I am normally out of town during shotgun season and not much of a muzzle loader. We are allowed to use handguns 357 and larger with a 5" or 6" barrel. They claim Ohio is too flat for big or high powered rifles. I'd feel much more "equipped" with a 223 on a sub 250lb whitetail at under 125-150 yards that I would with a 357 pistol at 60-75 yards.

We don't have big elk here... I've seen a lot of deer wounded with .243. Again, shot placement and distance are key variables that determine an ethical game shot. I'd take deer with 223 where as I'd not take a elk/moose/Sasquatch with a 243.

CCCLVII · March 29, 2014, 11:34 AM

Quote:

"With proper bullet placement an elk will drop with a 22lr."

I disagree with the premise that there is any "proper bullet placement" on an elk with a .22lr.

I have seen an elk killed by a 22lr about 15 yeas ago. It was hit by my (wife was driving) truck. I was unfortunately not sure of the laws for dispatching and elk and used the only gun I had with me. Ruger 10/22. Dispatched it just like a cow. Shoot where the hair spirals on the forehead. I went and told fish and game and ended up with a fine. They threatened to revoke my hunting license for several years but they did not follow through with that. Still the fine was bad enough

Should one shoot an elk with a 22lr or even a 243? Nope but dont ever say it wont do the job with perfect bullet placement.

Againstthewind · March 29, 2014, 04:30 PM

Man that really sucks that they gave you a fine for what I would consider a humane act. I think that you did the right thing putting the animal down and then calling it in. I am sorry you got fined for that.

pathdoc · March 29, 2014, 05:24 PM

Idiots. Dispatching a struck animal at zero range for the purpose of mercy is simply NOT the same as hunting that animal in the field. The type of cartridge becomes irrelevant at that point.

Back to the main thrust of the discussion, I was leafing through Nosler's 3rd-edition reloading manual this afternoon and what should I find but that the intro piece on the .243 Winchester is almost entirely about the pros and cons of using the cartridge on elk (granted, the manual was published in 1989 and a lot has changed since then in terms of bullet design and terminal performance).

The writer, one Grits Gresham, began the article by saying "The .243 Winchester cartridge isn't intended to be used on elk, and I don't recommend it for that purpose." However, he also went straight on to describe a friend of his doing the deed fifteen times in a row on bull elk with one shot apiece with no animals lost. He qualified this by describing that his friend was a very good shot, all the shots being at "modest" range (he does not state what this is, unfortunately), on a stationary target, and not being taken until certain of a double lung puncture. The bullet, however, is specifically described as being 100gn weight.

Take from that what you will. Personally, if someone offered me a tack-driving .243 with appropriate loads vs. my 3 MOA milsurp with 215gn softnoses for my first hunt, I'd take the milsurp and either get in close enough or pass up the shot.

doofus47 · March 29, 2014, 05:48 PM

Agreed. Putting a wounded animal out of its misery with caliber x isn't the same as shooting animal X while hunting. Perhaps that example was a bit of a stretch for the .223/deer vs. 243/elk comparison, but it does show that elk are not iron-clad tanks.

That said, I've never personally chatted with anyone who bragged of hunting with a .243 to prove that they could take an elk with an underpowered round. I think that most elk hunters think about bringing home the game first and bragging as a distant after thought. Elk tags are too precious. Marginal hits turn joy into despair very quickly My first thought when I take a shot with a 30-06 that doesn't feel like a good hit is:"$%m, if I scuffed this shot, I'm going to be playing 'connect the blood dots' for the next 3 miles until 2 in the a.m."

Are there people out there who do try to do that? Maybe, but they probably don't haul out their own quarters (if they have ever been elk hunting).

iraiam · March 29, 2014, 05:52 PM

I wouldn't think that a 223 would be a stretch for most Whitetails, the few Whitetails I have killed, I threw over my shoulder and carried out.

243 for an elk is pretty light IMO. It does meet the minimum caliber requirements, at least in CO, I would consider it under-powered for all but the most ideal shots, which I never get. I personally hunt elk with a .338 Win Mag, never lost one and never ruined any meat

Brian Pfleuger · March 29, 2014, 06:48 PM

You certainly haven't hunted Northern deer... You're not throwing them over your shoulder unless they're 6 months old (even then it's a stretch most of the time) or you're He-Man.
An average doe is over 100lbs field dressed and can go 150, while bucks go ~125 up to 225+

tahunua001 · March 29, 2014, 08:32 PM

my little brother's first doe was thrown over a shoulder.... then again when we started to field dress it we found spots...

reynolds357 · March 29, 2014, 08:32 PM

.223 for whitetail. A .243 is quite adequate for Elk when using a gilded metal bullet. BarnesX changed all the rules.

TimSr · March 29, 2014, 09:04 PM

Quote:

"With proper bullet placement an elk will drop with a 22lr."

"I disagree with the premise that there is any "proper bullet placement" on an elk with a .22lr."

I have seen an elk killed by a 22lr about 15 yeas ago. It was hit by my (wife was driving) truck. I was unfortunately not sure of the laws for dispatching and elk and used the only gun I had with me. Ruger 10/22. Dispatched it just like a cow. Shoot where the hair spirals on the forehead. I went and told fish and game and ended up with a fine. They threatened to revoke my hunting license for several years but they did not follow through with that. Still the fine was bad enough

Should one shoot an elk with a 22lr or even a 243? Nope but dont ever say it wont do the job with perfect bullet placement.

Okay, I'll stand correct and rephrase my statement.

I disagree with the premise that there is any "proper bullet placement" on an elk with a .22lr unless you hunt roadsides for elk that have already been hit by cars and are lying on the ground unable to run away.

Gunplummer · March 29, 2014, 09:30 PM

My, how times have changed. I have old GAME NEWS magazines (A publication of the PA Game Commission) with some really weird stories and articles. One article from a 60's magazine is written by a Game warden. It seems some kids see a bear during bear season and run home to tell a relative. The only thing he had handy was a .222. Took him 5 shots to kill the bear. The way the story was written kind of expressed how tough bears are and had no disparaging remarks about the rifle used. If that story surfaced today, all involved would be crucified by the "Hunters" on this forum, including the Game Warden that wrote the article. I have hunted public land for a long time and it is rare to see someone carrying a centerfire .22, but for some unknown reason I have killed a lot of deer that were wounded before I shot them. Pretty weird, huh?

Againstthewind · March 29, 2014, 11:33 PM

I am a little sensitive about anyone being called an idiot. I thought the example of the mercy kill was a good real world example and pertinent to the discussion. I don't think anyone was saying that it was the same as a hunting situation. I guess there are lots of opinions about what should be used in a hunting situation. I wouldn't take anything hunting that I couldn't get better than 3 MOA unless I was in bow range. Then I might as well be using a bow and have better seasons without a bunch of idiots with guns running around. Whole other can of worms I suppose.

old roper · March 30, 2014, 08:22 AM

I've never missed a elk season since moving to Co 1977 and I only missed one buck season on a draw tag first choice thru 4th didn't get any.

I have never hunted elk with 243 and have almost 50yrs experience shooting one and I'm also shooting 243AI. I understand limitation on 243 hunting elk and units I hunt which are more open so 243 wouldn't be a choice for me to use.

Art Eatman · March 30, 2014, 09:41 AM

The summary of all this is that there are situations where these smaller cartridges work and some where they don't--so there are many variables. We could go on playing with anecdotes 'til the Devil starts selling ice cubes. Let's don't.

March 29, 2014, 05:48 PM	#58
doofus47 Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2010 Location: live in a in a house when i'm not in a tent Posts: 2,483	Agreed. Putting a wounded animal out of its misery with caliber x isn't the same as shooting animal X while hunting. Perhaps that example was a bit of a stretch for the .223/deer vs. 243/elk comparison, but it does show that elk are not iron-clad tanks. That said, I've never personally chatted with anyone who bragged of hunting with a .243 to prove that they could take an elk with an underpowered round. I think that most elk hunters think about bringing home the game first and bragging as a distant after thought. Elk tags are too precious. Marginal hits turn joy into despair very quickly My first thought when I take a shot with a 30-06 that doesn't feel like a good hit is:"$%m, if I scuffed this shot, I'm going to be playing 'connect the blood dots' for the next 3 miles until 2 in the a.m." Are there people out there who do try to do that? Maybe, but they probably don't haul out their own quarters (if they have ever been elk hunting). __________________ I'm right about the metric system 3/4 of the time. Last edited by doofus47; March 29, 2014 at 05:50 PM. Reason: i can't spell 30-06

March 29, 2014, 05:52 PM	#59
iraiam Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2012 Location: Lakewood, CO Posts: 1,057	I wouldn't think that a 223 would be a stretch for most Whitetails, the few Whitetails I have killed, I threw over my shoulder and carried out. 243 for an elk is pretty light IMO. It does meet the minimum caliber requirements, at least in CO, I would consider it under-powered for all but the most ideal shots, which I never get. I personally hunt elk with a .338 Win Mag, never lost one and never ruined any meat __________________ NRA Lifetime Member Since 1999 "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." George Mason

March 29, 2014, 06:48 PM	#60
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Which is more of a stretch: .223 rem for whitetails or .243 win for elk? You certainly haven't hunted Northern deer... You're not throwing them over your shoulder unless they're 6 months old (even then it's a stretch most of the time) or you're He-Man. An average doe is over 100lbs field dressed and can go 150, while bucks go ~125 up to 225+

March 29, 2014, 08:32 PM	#61
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	my little brother's first doe was thrown over a shoulder.... then again when we started to field dress it we found spots... __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

March 29, 2014, 11:33 PM	#65
Againstthewind Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Posts: 60	Idiots I am a little sensitive about anyone being called an idiot. I thought the example of the mercy kill was a good real world example and pertinent to the discussion. I don't think anyone was saying that it was the same as a hunting situation. I guess there are lots of opinions about what should be used in a hunting situation. I wouldn't take anything hunting that I couldn't get better than 3 MOA unless I was in bow range. Then I might as well be using a bow and have better seasons without a bunch of idiots with guns running around. Whole other can of worms I suppose.

March 27, 2014, 11:45 PM	#52
Bezoar Junior member Join Date: October 19, 2004 Location: michigan Posts: 578	243 is used on moose elk. its called getting a box of barnes tsx/ttsx or hornady gmx.

March 28, 2014, 11:15 PM	#53
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	"With proper bullet placement an elk will drop with a 22lr." I disagree with the premise that there is any "proper bullet placement" on an elk with a .22lr.

March 29, 2014, 08:49 AM	#54
Freakingstang Member Join Date: January 12, 2014 Location: Canfield Ohio Posts: 44	I took my first and only deer about 20 years ago now on my grandpas farm with a mini 14 and some of my uncles 55grain soft point. Range was about 100 yards it wasn't a huge white tail, but normal good sized one. I don't remember the weight as I was 14 or 15 at the time. My uncle used a 22-250 for white tails for 20+ years. Shot placement and distance are key IMO. A little 223 or 22-250 is no joke. Speed kills. Would I attempt to take that shot today at 200 yards? No. I wish Ohio allowed high powered rifle for deer hunting. I don't hunt deer as I am normally out of town during shotgun season and not much of a muzzle loader. We are allowed to use handguns 357 and larger with a 5" or 6" barrel. They claim Ohio is too flat for big or high powered rifles. I'd feel much more "equipped" with a 223 on a sub 250lb whitetail at under 125-150 yards that I would with a 357 pistol at 60-75 yards. We don't have big elk here... I've seen a lot of deer wounded with .243. Again, shot placement and distance are key variables that determine an ethical game shot. I'd take deer with 223 where as I'd not take a elk/moose/Sasquatch with a 243.

March 29, 2014, 04:30 PM	#56
Againstthewind Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Posts: 60	Man that really sucks that they gave you a fine for what I would consider a humane act. I think that you did the right thing putting the animal down and then calling it in. I am sorry you got fined for that.

March 29, 2014, 05:24 PM	#57
pathdoc Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2013 Posts: 669	Idiots. Dispatching a struck animal at zero range for the purpose of mercy is simply NOT the same as hunting that animal in the field. The type of cartridge becomes irrelevant at that point. Back to the main thrust of the discussion, I was leafing through Nosler's 3rd-edition reloading manual this afternoon and what should I find but that the intro piece on the .243 Winchester is almost entirely about the pros and cons of using the cartridge on elk (granted, the manual was published in 1989 and a lot has changed since then in terms of bullet design and terminal performance). The writer, one Grits Gresham, began the article by saying "The .243 Winchester cartridge isn't intended to be used on elk, and I don't recommend it for that purpose." However, he also went straight on to describe a friend of his doing the deed fifteen times in a row on bull elk with one shot apiece with no animals lost. He qualified this by describing that his friend was a very good shot, all the shots being at "modest" range (he does not state what this is, unfortunately), on a stationary target, and not being taken until certain of a double lung puncture. The bullet, however, is specifically described as being 100gn weight. Take from that what you will. Personally, if someone offered me a tack-driving .243 with appropriate loads vs. my 3 MOA milsurp with 215gn softnoses for my first hunt, I'd take the milsurp and either get in close enough or pass up the shot.

March 29, 2014, 08:32 PM	#62
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	.223 for whitetail. A .243 is quite adequate for Elk when using a gilded metal bullet. BarnesX changed all the rules.

March 29, 2014, 09:30 PM	#64
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	My, how times have changed. I have old GAME NEWS magazines (A publication of the PA Game Commission) with some really weird stories and articles. One article from a 60's magazine is written by a Game warden. It seems some kids see a bear during bear season and run home to tell a relative. The only thing he had handy was a .222. Took him 5 shots to kill the bear. The way the story was written kind of expressed how tough bears are and had no disparaging remarks about the rifle used. If that story surfaced today, all involved would be crucified by the "Hunters" on this forum, including the Game Warden that wrote the article. I have hunted public land for a long time and it is rare to see someone carrying a centerfire .22, but for some unknown reason I have killed a lot of deer that were wounded before I shot them. Pretty weird, huh?

March 30, 2014, 08:22 AM	#66
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	I've never missed a elk season since moving to Co 1977 and I only missed one buck season on a draw tag first choice thru 4th didn't get any. I have never hunted elk with 243 and have almost 50yrs experience shooting one and I'm also shooting 243AI. I understand limitation on 243 hunting elk and units I hunt which are more open so 243 wouldn't be a choice for me to use. __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

March 30, 2014, 09:41 AM	#67
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	The summary of all this is that there are situations where these smaller cartridges work and some where they don't--so there are many variables. We could go on playing with anecdotes 'til the Devil starts selling ice cubes. Let's don't.