need your opinions

[Harry Bonar]

Sirs:
I have a grandson, old enough to know better who is a nazi, has an MG42 semi, wears a German issue helmet, comes up to eat with his buddies and tries to convince me that the Nazis were good guys!
Last week when he wore his helmet up to, as usual, eat with his buddy I expressed my displeasure with the opinions he expressed - that our American G.I. solders did what the Nazis did when in Viet-Nam. I explained what the Germans did and that our soldiers fought honorably and had no such behaviour and that they ought to be ashamed.
Today I'd had enough. They stood there with the MG42 and that damn helmet on and tried to argue with me, rub it in my face and tell me our men in uniform were no better and I finally told them that if I did what I wanted to do they would end up out the window!
They left mad, the wifes mad and frankly I DON"T GIVE A ****!
Harry B.
Boys - Was I out of line?

[Playboypenguin]

My grandfather, who participated in liberating a few concentration camps toward the end of the war, would have just choked him to death.

[pinotguy]

No, absolutely in line, if you ask me. Exactly how old is he? I suspect he is trying to get attention by spouting some inflammatory remarks. Hopefully it's just a phase. Regardless, I still support your response and it sounds as if you bit your tongue for some time. For anyone to compare American soldiers behaviour to those of the Nazis is a sign of ignorance and immaturity. As your grandson grows older, I'm guessing those views will disappear. Still, here and now, those statements would enrage me.

I shudder to think what would have happened if I had said similar things to either of my grand-fathers, both of whom served in World War II.

[James K]

I don't know how old he is, but he is probably repeating some things he has read or has been told. If he is old enough be able to actually reason, I would not deny that American soldiers committed atrocities, in WWII and later wars. They did. In any large group, there are bad apples, and the stress of war can bring out the worst in some as well as the best in others.

The difference is that American soldiers, when found out, were arrested and tried for their crimes. Many were found guilty and sentenced accordingly.

But, while many German soldiers fought honorably for a bad cause, murder and other atrocities were systemic, part of a deliberate Nazi terror campaign against the civilian populace in occupied territory; atrocities were condoned and approved, when not actually ordered, by the party and the military high command.

On another site, I had a set-to with a young man who used the screen name "Reinhard Heydrich." It seems his mother (or maybe grandmother) was from the Sudetenland, a region populated by Germans that was made part of Czachoslovakia after WWI. The people there did not like Czech rule; they understandably welcomed German troops in 1938, and thought of them as liberators.

When I told him some of the things Heydrich had done, personally, to people who were not part of any resistance, he quieted down and (I think) changed his screen name, as I never saw it again.

Sometimes, young people become enamoured of groups they see as vigorous, strong, and willing to fight for their ideals. That sounds good, but we always need to ask what those ideals are and what the "fight" will involve. After all, Al Qaeda is certainly fighting for ideals; unfortunately, their ideals involve killing all non-Moslems and even those Moslems who disagree with them.

Note also that symbolism is part of the totalitarian process. A symbol that is easily chalked on walls or printed on flags and shirts can be a powerful tool in the indoctrination of the young and immature. The swastika, the hammer and sickle, and the peace sign (designed by a British communist) are well known.

Jim

[fisherman66]

Was I out of line?

No sir.

[Bill DeShivs]

You were a gentleman, in my opinion.
Tell the little [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] that if he is really interested in learning why you disagree with him that you will be glad to teach him the truth.

[Gbro]

My heart go out to you Harry.
I have Grandchildren coming into those years.
I don't like some of the garbage that interests them. And I know the same was true of us and our parents.
TBS, I still make it very clear to them how i feel and just pray that they come through those tender years without damage.

Have faith in the Lord.

[Hawg]

I went through a Nazi stage but I outgrew it by the time I was 15. Sounds like this guy is over the top. Was it me I'd have shoved his MG42 where the sun don't shine.

[bswiv]

Sounds like you held your self back very well.

It also sounds like he needs a history lesson. Mr. Keenen is VERY correct in that it was part of the Nazi system. Sadly it was also part of our Russian alies system also.

It's notable that the Nazi alies, the Italians, did not behave in this way, generally..........

"Citizen Solder" would be good reading for him..................

[Harry Bonar]

Thanks Guys:
This boy is past 20 and has a job.
Harry B.

[James K]

Hi, Bswiv,

You are correct about the Russians; Stalin killed many more people than Hitler did, but our left wing and Jewish press never seemed to want to say that. And Mao did away with many times more of his own people than Stalin, but the leftists called him an "agrarian reformer", I guess because, like Stalin, he plowed the bodies under for fertilizer.

I didn't mention those nice folks because Harry's problem does not involve a grandson parading around with a PPSh pretending to be a commissar.

Jim

[Wasper]

Mr. Bonar,
It sounds as if your grandson may have been approached by a white supremist group such as W.A.R. or the Nazi Skins or any of the myriad of hate groups & websites out there. If he still lives at home I would be searching his room and computer. These groups are very skilled in the use of propaganda and brainwashing "young skulls full of mush" to quote Rush Limbaugh.

I would not take this threat lightly. I've worked around street/prison gangs for 19 years. These scumbags recruit young kids and exploit them and once they get so far in, it's hard to pull them back out.

Hopefully just a young man blowing off steam but I would not bet on it either.

Good luck.

[Buzzcook]

The Holocaust happened as many living witness' have attested to.
While American troops and the American military have committed atrocities, it is nothing compared to the systematic torture and murder of millions of men women and children.

This is also why the Nazis were worse than either Stalin or Mao. Both regimes may have caused the deaths of more people, but they didn't systematically cause all those deaths as the Nazis did. Many if not most of the deaths under the communists were cause by gross incompetence rather than true malice.
That doesn't excuse those deaths, it just puts them in prospective.
The Holocaust was simply the most evil act ever perpetrated by one group of humans against another.

You weren't out of line. Tell your grandson that any Nazi paraphernalia is banned from your home. If he wants to visit he's got to leave that stuff at his place.

[Old Gaffer]

Sir,

Far from being out of line, I'm ready to hold you up as a model of restraint.

For someone to come into YOUR house, and repeatedly affront you in that manner he does, shows a complete disregard for basic civility and respect for you and Mrs. Bonar.

In my wildest days of misspent youth (when I was a antiwar hippie rock and roller), I'd never have shown such poor breeding to anyone - in public OR private.

This young person and his friend(s) sound like good candidates for an afternoon in DC's holocaust museum, or out your way, perhaps, a day trip to the Air Force museum on WPAFB - there's a nice little display of Nazi concentration camp garb and memorabilia.

If that doesn't move him to tears and a rapid change of ways, he's already too far gone, and could be written-off conscience free as a Bad Case.

I sincerely it hasn't come to that, for it sounds like Mrs. Bonar still has feelings of familial affection for him - which does HER great honor, might I add, and it will go hard on her to learn a hard truth.

All the best,
Rob

[James K]

Buzzcook, you are sadly misinformed. The Stalinist massacres were done on the direct orders of Stalin, just as the first Maoist killings were ordered by Mao. Many later resulted from starvation, as did Stalin's score, but those deaths were condoned and permitted by state policy. I agree that the Nazis, being German, were more efficient and better organized in their killing than the Russians or Chinese, but that was not for lack of trying on the part of the Communists. I strongly suggest you read a good history of the Soviet Union (not the ones turned out by Stalinists) and I think you will realize how far your ideas are from reality.

For many years, the Jews have downplayed the Communist slaughter for two reasons - many Jews tended to support Communism as a counter to Nazism, and the Communist killings were not specifically aimed at Jews as the Holocaust was. (Of course, Hitler killed thousands of non-Jews, but the Jews bore the brunt of Nazi "cleansing.") An elderly Jewish woman once told me that Stalin's atrocities were unimportant because he killed "only peasants", where Hitler exterminated "intellectuals like artists and writers, educated people." Sadly, that seems to be a not uncommon view among Jews.

You are right in one respect, that the elimination of Jews was not part of Marxism-Leninism, as it was part of Nazism. FWIW, Marx and Trotsky were Jews; Lenin was part Jewish but was baptized Russian Orthodox; Stalin, like Hitler, was baptized a Catholic.

Anti-Judaism was common in all of Europe (and in the U.S.) at that time. Germany, in fact, was one of the more tolerant countries, but Hitler was not German and many of his ideas came from Austrian anti-Judaism. The reasons for his appeal to the German people are complex, and hatred of the Jews was only one part of it.

Jim

[Cowart]

Was I out of line?

No, the custom is - your house, your rules. If you were to go to visit him in his house, that would be different. I would have nothing to do with him whatsoever.

[45Dave]

I would have to say you have shown above and beyond with your grandson. Sounds like a product of a poor school system which did not teach history and facts and he has hooked up with a cult...gang...what ever you want to call it that uses the Nazi agenda. Most often he will be afraid of the truth and focus on his groups twisted propaganda. Hopefully he will wake up and respect your property..your rights and keep his Nazi lifestyle to his self.

[remjeep75]

sounds like at the least he needs learn respect for his grandfather

[darrentxs]

Harry, I for one am glad you wouldn't allow him to go unchallenged when he was spouting that garbage about our military/vets. I sure hope he gets it together.

[ZeSpectre]

Send him to the Holocaust museum in Washington DC. See how that punches his ticket.

[Fremmer]

The Nazis were not good people. So you were not out of line, Harry. He needs someone to tell him the truth. He's just young and dumb. Don't give up on him yet, he'll grow up, but when he's wrong, you have to tell him so.

[velocette]

Harry;
My Dad (submarine service) all but 1 of my uncles (Army & Navy, 1, North Atlantic in DDs, 3, Went ashore in Normandy, 1 into Sicily) And I, USAF, Vietnam, would happily agree that you have been restrained and quite calm.
Remember that it's YOUR home and YOUR values. They need to learn some respect. No change that, they need to learn a LOT of respect.
Keep up the good work & God Bless.

Roger

[dutchy]

Harry,

Aside from the historical realities (atrocities) and the inherent flaws of any totalitarian system, where you in YOUR home?
If so, YOU and nobodyelse decides what is in line or not.

Just ask them, if nazism is so fine, why they screwed up in winning WWII.
Why, for about 40 years the remaining germans were not the most welcomed guests in the rest of Europe.
And explain them, that if nazism would be reinstated, many of the modern followers would end up in their own camps as antisocial elements.
Remember, not only jews were exterminated.

And, if you are in the educating mood, send them on a trip to auschwitz.
That's the cure.

[SIGSHR]

We'll throw him in the Quantum Leap Transporter, send him back to Stalingard in November 1942 just after the Soviets close the ring.

[Joe the Redneck]

Call him, tell him you love him very much. Tell him you want him to be a part of your life. But his Nazi friends are not welcome and that he must act like an adult and avoid the discussion of politics.

If he presses the issue, say "I respect your right to make your own political chioces, you must respect my right to not discuss the matter."

You want him to see that you are leaving the door open. If he sees you and brings it up, ask him to leave for the day, but you look foward to seeing him agan on a day when he can keep his agreements.

Like any other cult, you can't encourge it actively or passivly. Nor can you discourage it. You have to keep out of. Restate that you respect his right to make his own decisions, he must respect yours.

If you shut the door on him the cult will use this againt him. Saying that you are dangerous to him, That you are filled with lies from the "Mud People Media" and that he must stay away from you. You don't want that to happen. Don't play their game.

i wish you the best with this. Please keep trying.

Joe