vietnam question

[customaquatics]

my dad passed away last year an i have a question. he was in the Army during Vietnam but was part of a large renforment force that was stationed in Germany that was never sent there for some reason? well my question is was they issued the 1911? or did they have the 92? ima have custom wood grips engraved for my mom sayin his name the dates of which he was in an his army platoon's logo.

[RickB]

U.S. involvement in Vietnam was long over when the M9 was adopted.

[Willie Lowman]

1911.

The 92 was not adopted till '85.

[PawPaw]

I joined the Army in 1975 and didn't see a Beretta M9 until I qualified with one during Desert Storm in 1990. Prior to that, soldiers were issued 1911's or .38 revolvers. I saw lots of 1911's and .38 revolvers, from a variety of manufacturers.

I doubt that his platoon had a logo. Regiments have crests. However, some units informally adopt symbols.

[PetahW]

I don't know that enlisted men were issued ANY handguns - just ossifers.

Grunts got the M16 during my time, or a squad weapon.

That doesn't mean a grunt couldn't lay their hands on one, by one means or another....................

Heck - One fella even won a pretty new T-Bird convertible in a poker game I was watching.



.

[customaquatics]

ya a logo crest thing i can upload a pic if i can find it, this is all i could get

[hardhat harry]

Enlisted personel in Vietnam carried the 1911 if they were carrying the M-60 machine gun, or the M79 grenade launcher in Infantry units. I know this for a fact.

[lamarw]

Minor clarification. It would of been the M1911A1 during Nam. The M1911 was the predecessor to the A1. Generally, the grips were different on the two pistols.

[carguychris]

Oooh, he flew a Hughes OH-6A "Loach" (officially Cayuse)? Vietnam War scout helicopter ops are a favorite topic of mine.

The other posters are basically correct; a 'Nam helicopter crewman would have normally been issued an M1911A1 or possibly a S&W or Colt .38Spl revolver, depending on what the local armorers had on hand.

However, during actual operations in 'Nam, the supply situation was often very fluid and unpredictable. This, combined with an overall shortage of qualified helicopter crews and the "short timer" attitude of many warrant officer* crewmen, seems to have led to a fairly high tolerance (by U.S. Army standards) for personally owned sidearms. According to memoirs I've read, some crewmen carried various commercial Gov't Model or Commander variants since the ammo was usually available through standard supply channels. Believe it or not, Colt Pythons seem to have been a somewhat common status symbol. OTOH I seriously doubt that a commander of a relief unit in Germany would have tolerated a crewman carrying a Python!

The basic 'Nam scout helicopter tactic for locating the VC was to draw their fire, usually by flying the helicopter very close to them while being shot at- NOT a mission for the faint of heart! Since these guys had a very high chance of being shot down literally within a few dozen yards of a heavily armed enemy infantry unit, most crewmen also carried Colt CAR-15 aka XM-177 carbines in the aircraft, since these were much more useful in an actual firefight than a pistol would be. (The CAR-15 was a full auto short-barrel version of the M-16, and forerunner of today's so-called "Commando" AR-15 variants.) A Loach also usually carried a crew chief / door gunner with an M-60 machine gun in the rear seat. The M-60 was usually mounted with a bungee cord to the ceiling, primarily to allow more angles of fire while flying, but also to allow the gun to be cut loose easily if the crew was shot down and things got really hairy.

*Footnote: The warrant officer program allowed aircrew candidates to sign up for short fixed-duration deployments and skip the administrative and leadership training that a commissioned officer would undergo. Since a typical 'Nam era warrant officer did not intend to make military service into a lifetime career, he did not have the same incentive to do things "by the book" that a junior commissioned officer would have.

[RickB]

Minor clarification. It would of been the M1911A1 during Nam. The M1911 was the predecessor to the A1. Generally, the grips were different on the two pistols.

Plenty of M1911s were still in service in the '60s.

[James K]

Officially, pistols were issued to soldiers or Marines of any rank whose duties were such that carrying the standard rifle was not feasible. In some conflicts, depending on several factors, troops scrounged pistols if and when they could and carried them more or less openly.

Jim

[Strafer Gott]

Those Loach drivers impressed the hell out of me one evening when they came in and started pushing bushes over with their skids so that we could check them for NVA without going in. Que huevos! Of course, there were two Cobras at 3,000 feet above them just in case. Beats anything you see on cable.
The 1911 was everywhere, enlisted and officer alike. It was a personal thing.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Strafer Gott

The 1911 was everywhere, enlisted and officer alike. It was a personal thing.

It wasn't a personal thing where I was, which was 4th Infantry Division around Pleiku in 1968. I would have loved to have had an M1911A1 to back up my horribly unreliable M16, but I wasn't authorized anything other than the M16. Heck, at one point I came into possession of a nightstick, and I wasn't even allowed to keep that.

While it is certainly correct that the M1911A1 was the standard issue sidearm for most troops who were authorized to carry a sidearm, the fact is that an enlisted man waiting in the wings in Germany who never made it into Vietnam almost certainly never carried any sidearm.

[Nasty]

Only M16, M60, M203, M148, 1911/A1 for the US Army troops in Germany unless it was privately obtained and kept out of site. The sidearms were for officers and Military Police/OSI and such, not common troops. The Germans had strict rules about such.

"Held in reserve" was more likely strictly Cold War support. The US Army had tons of tanks and a few dozen Pershings pointed at the USSR then and the US Army stood guard duty along borders and around compounds.

[customaquatics]

ok so to do what i have in mind would a Colt Government model 1911 an if i cant locate one can i use a Rock Island Armory to be the one closest im lookin at without dishin out the $$$ for a real M1911A1?

[BerdanSS]

That or a Springfield Armory GI (not the mil-spec) I'd rather have the Springfield over the RIA

[Aguila Blanca]

A Vietnam vintage M1911A1 would have been Parkerized, not blued or painted. Springfield Armory has discontinued their GI, and their so-called Mil-Spec model is anything BUT Mil-Spec -- the sights are wrong and it has slanted cocking serrations.

Other than one of the very rare Colt WW2 replicas (only 2700 made), the one that's going to look the most like the real deal without breaking the bank is the Kahr/Auto-Ordnance GI 1911. The Rock Island isn't "right" -- it has a lowered ejection port, and that ugly RIA billboard on the side of the slide.

[DMacLeod]

If you don't want to spend big bucks look at a Remington R1

[carguychris]

The Rock Island isn't "right" -- it has a lowered ejection port, and that ugly RIA billboard on the side of the slide.

Didn't Cimarron recently sell a similar gun with the correct ejection port and a more subtle GI-style slide legend? I could be wrong.

FWIW I agree with you about the recent RIA slide legend; from a marketing standpoint, I understand why they introduced it, but it's far too garish to look anything close to authentic from less than 20' away.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by carguychris

Didn't Cimarron recently sell a similar gun with the correct ejection port and a more subtle GI-style slide legend? I could be wrong.

I don't recall Cimmaron offering an M1911A1 replica. They did offer (and maybe still do) an Armscor-made M1911 (WW1 style) replica. It was blued, not parkerized, so not accurate for a Vietnam-era pistol.

Perhaps they have added a visually-correct WW2 replica. If so, I missed it.

[Strafer Gott]

I'm happy with the AO, but lowering the ejection port on it really made it 100%. I never really cared for a 1911 until I hit the civilian market. I had a 1991 as well, but sold it because the AO slicked up so well. The Viet Nam era GI 1911 was a totally different proposition. I know that some units really enforced who carried what, but most units had an underground quartermaster, if you wanted something for yourself. Some really wild stuff would show up, like Thompsons and M3s. We never concealed anything. We never got barfed.
I think most officers in that neck of the woods liked guns. That is why I think most guys would tote an M16 with the grenade launcher, and in very short order the M203 was issued. Then I saw more 1911s. Just an observation.

[MJN77]

Cimarron sells an Armscor 1911 (not A1) with a parkerized, blued, or nickle finish. The roll marks are even done in the style of the Colts.
http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/mil...-45-cal-1.html
As for a WWII style 1911A1.....
http://www.auto-ordnance.com/Firearm...-1911PKZSE.asp
I have had one of these things for over a year and after a few thousand rounds it has not missed a beat. The only thing that sucks is the series 80 firing pin block but it isn't a problem.

[vito]

I entered the Army in July 1966, and the issue weapon was an M-14. Three years later as a Captain in the Republic of Vietnam, I was issued an M-16. Being in a medical battalion of the 101st Airborne (Airmobile) stationed at Camp Eagle near Phu Bai, I acquired a 1911, a Colt 38 revolver, an M-79 grenade launcher, an M-1 carbine with a pistol grip and shortened barrel and various explosives and miscellaneous military gear. But alas, I left it all there when I rotated home (I really wanted to take home the 38 revolver and wrestled with the situation knowing that it was unlikely that I would get caught, but knowing if I did get caught I would be in big, big trouble as a Captain). The 1911's that I had at one time or another were all, let us say "loose". They were old, and you could actually hear parts rattle around when you shook the gun. But they fired and were always looked at as a "last resort" weapon if you were overrun. My favorite weapon was the M-79, which worked great to scare off sharks (and anything else that might be in the water) when a group of us would fly down to the beach to swim in the South China Sea.

[customaquatics]

so i would be looking at that Parkerized from Auto-Ordnance?

[lockedcj7]

I'm not sure what you consider "big bucks" but I recently acquired a 1943 Remington Rand 1911A1. RR made more 1911A1s than Colt did and they were still in service during Viet Nam.

Do yourself a favor and hold out for the real deal. Mine cost more than my Sig and my Glock put together but I wouldn't trade it for the world.

It was love at first sight and I know that I'm holding a piece of history and one just like it brought comfort to my grandfather (WWII) and my father (Viet Nam). I've since been told that I paid top-shelf price for a less than average condition gun but I don't care. The only one I've found cheaper was re-finished and wearing hideous grips. I'll bet mine appreciates faster than a CD anyway. They aren't rare and I always see a few at every gunshow along with some WWII Colts.

FWIW - My dad was an anti-mortar radar operator '68-'69. He didn't talk much about the war but IIRC, he was with the 25th I.D. and was in the siege at Ben Het. He freely admitted that he couldn't hit anything with a .45 and said that the last bullet was reserved for himself if they were overrun. That tells me that he had one, authorized or not.