.451 vs .452?

cdoc42 · January 3, 2012, 08:50 AM

I fired some reloaded Hornady XTP 200gr bullets out of my .45 Colt/.410 Judge with a 3-inch barrel. Used 6.7 gr of Tite-Group and CCI 300 LRP. Bullets grouped 4" to the left of my point of aim. Some of the cases were extremely sooty. The Hornady box labeled them .451". Would things improve in accuracy and dirty cases if I used .452 diameter?

steve4102 · January 3, 2012, 09:02 AM

I would have to say, probably. Try these.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/776...int-box-of-100

vladan · January 3, 2012, 09:05 AM

Sooty cases usually indicates low pressure - the case doesn't expand fully to seal the chamber - so using faster powder or different bullet might help. But in my experience one thou is not much difference to produce noticeable results ( with the same type, construction and weight of bullet), sometimes bullets differ more than 1-2 thou in diameter in the same batch.
Another thing is the TG is not the cleanest burning powder, especially at low pressures - try switch to different powder, I had great results with Trail Boss for low pressure target loads.

maggys drawers · January 3, 2012, 10:00 AM

I got sooty cases with TG in my Judge, too. I switched to Power Pistol and the problem went away. I also shoot the 250 grn XTP''s in it.

243winxb · January 3, 2012, 10:04 AM

Larger diameter bullets, .452" will make no difference. You are working with a very long chamber made for the 410. The bullets have to jump a long distance in free space to reach the forcing come. Way to long for accuracy. You may want to check over here > http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=8 An oversized cast bullet may help some. The T/C contender in 45/410 is about the same as your Judge.

cdoc42 · January 3, 2012, 10:38 AM

Thanks, everyone - this has really been helpful. Happy New Year!

243winxb · January 3, 2012, 07:21 PM

The .410 area of the chamber is .011" larger than the .452" throat of the 45 Colt. See SAAMI drawing here > http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC.../45%20Colt.pdf and http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...re%202_1-2.pdf

cdoc42 · January 4, 2012, 08:20 AM

So I suspect that means if the cases do expand to seal the chamber, constant resizing will lead to less useful life as compared to a conventional .45 Colt -?

drail · January 4, 2012, 12:22 PM

Generally speaking what causes cases to split is flaring more than is necessary to start a bullet and crimping more than is needed. The mouth of the case becomes work hardened and brittle and will start cracking. Expansion from firing and resizing when reloading have very little effect on case life. I have .45 ACP, .44 Spl., and .41 Mag. cases I have been reloading since the late 1980s and none have split yet. Some of the .45 ACP brass I have been using has been reloaded at least 50 times or more and and never failed. Look into Lyman's M-step expander die. With these you cannot over flare the mouth. They will greatly increase case life and make loading bullets into the case much easier. And only crimp lightly, just enough to remove the flare and straighten the case wall out.

jimbob86 · January 4, 2012, 12:59 PM

All cases are supposed to expeand to seal the chamber: that's why brass is used- it is springy enough to expand to seal the chamber and momentarily grip the chamber walls, and then as pressure drops (bullet leaves barrel), contract enough for easy extraction.....

snuffy · January 4, 2012, 01:30 PM

What 243 was trying to explain to you is; the chamber of a judge or any other 45 colt/.410 gun is a compromise chamber. It HAS to be built like it is.

This results in an extremely long freebore before the bullet encounters the barrel and rifling. That alone doesn't mean much IF the freebore was .452 in diameter. As 243 says, it's much bigger! .011 means the bore is .463! That makes for a loose fit for the 45 colt bullet. Plus, it is not spinning yet, just sliding down an oversize bore.

This allows something else to happen, powder gasses going past the bullet. So the best powder for the colt load would be something very fast , so that the powder is mostly consumed before the bullet leaves the case. Red-dot. 700-X, nitro-100 or even bullseye would work best.

243winxb · January 4, 2012, 03:42 PM

Quote:

So I suspect that means if the cases do expand to seal the chamber, constant resizing will lead to less useful life as compared to a conventional .45 Colt -?

The 45 Colt chamber is about .4806" in diameter. The 410 is about .4630" So the 45 is larger in that area. I would guess that case life will be normal. Different powder, like snuffy said, may cut down on the extremely sooty condition. After the bullet leaves the case mouth, it has to travel about 1.125" in an oversize 410 chamber, measuring .011" larger than bullet diameter (.463" -.452") Not good for accuracy.

243winxb · January 4, 2012, 03:57 PM

The 200gr bullet can be loaded hotter, up to 7.5gr Titegroup for a cleaner burn. Better accuracy might be found with a 250gr bullet. Longer bearing surface might help. Or even the 300gr bullet?

cdoc42 · January 5, 2012, 09:02 AM

I just bought sosme 250gr Hornady XTP - I'll try them out this weekend. Thanks for all the detailed explanations.

January 3, 2012, 08:50 AM	#1
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	.451 vs .452? I fired some reloaded Hornady XTP 200gr bullets out of my .45 Colt/.410 Judge with a 3-inch barrel. Used 6.7 gr of Tite-Group and CCI 300 LRP. Bullets grouped 4" to the left of my point of aim. Some of the cases were extremely sooty. The Hornady box labeled them .451". Would things improve in accuracy and dirty cases if I used .452 diameter?

January 3, 2012, 10:04 AM	#5
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	.45 Colt/.410 Judge Larger diameter bullets, .452" will make no difference. You are working with a very long chamber made for the 410. The bullets have to jump a long distance in free space to reach the forcing come. Way to long for accuracy. You may want to check over here > http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=8 An oversized cast bullet may help some. The T/C contender in 45/410 is about the same as your Judge.

January 4, 2012, 01:30 PM	#11
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	What 243 was trying to explain to you is; the chamber of a judge or any other 45 colt/.410 gun is a compromise chamber. It HAS to be built like it is. This results in an extremely long freebore before the bullet encounters the barrel and rifling. That alone doesn't mean much IF the freebore was .452 in diameter. As 243 says, it's much bigger! .011 means the bore is .463! That makes for a loose fit for the 45 colt bullet. Plus, it is not spinning yet, just sliding down an oversize bore. This allows something else to happen, powder gasses going past the bullet. So the best powder for the colt load would be something very fast , so that the powder is mostly consumed before the bullet leaves the case. Red-dot. 700-X, nitro-100 or even bullseye would work best. __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

January 3, 2012, 09:02 AM	#2
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	I would have to say, probably. Try these. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/776...int-box-of-100

January 3, 2012, 09:05 AM	#3
vladan Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Location: Central Florida Posts: 813	Sooty cases usually indicates low pressure - the case doesn't expand fully to seal the chamber - so using faster powder or different bullet might help. But in my experience one thou is not much difference to produce noticeable results ( with the same type, construction and weight of bullet), sometimes bullets differ more than 1-2 thou in diameter in the same batch. Another thing is the TG is not the cleanest burning powder, especially at low pressures - try switch to different powder, I had great results with Trail Boss for low pressure target loads.

January 3, 2012, 10:00 AM	#4
maggys drawers Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2006 Posts: 178	I got sooty cases with TG in my Judge, too. I switched to Power Pistol and the problem went away. I also shoot the 250 grn XTP''s in it.

January 3, 2012, 10:38 AM	#6
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	Thanks, everyone - this has really been helpful. Happy New Year!

January 3, 2012, 07:21 PM	#7
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	The .410 area of the chamber is .011" larger than the .452" throat of the 45 Colt. See SAAMI drawing here > http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC.../45%20Colt.pdf and http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...re%202_1-2.pdf

January 4, 2012, 08:20 AM	#8
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	So I suspect that means if the cases do expand to seal the chamber, constant resizing will lead to less useful life as compared to a conventional .45 Colt -?

January 4, 2012, 12:22 PM	#9
drail Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Posts: 3,150	Generally speaking what causes cases to split is flaring more than is necessary to start a bullet and crimping more than is needed. The mouth of the case becomes work hardened and brittle and will start cracking. Expansion from firing and resizing when reloading have very little effect on case life. I have .45 ACP, .44 Spl., and .41 Mag. cases I have been reloading since the late 1980s and none have split yet. Some of the .45 ACP brass I have been using has been reloaded at least 50 times or more and and never failed. Look into Lyman's M-step expander die. With these you cannot over flare the mouth. They will greatly increase case life and make loading bullets into the case much easier. And only crimp lightly, just enough to remove the flare and straighten the case wall out.

January 4, 2012, 12:59 PM	#10
jimbob86 Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: All the way to NEBRASKA Posts: 8,722	All cases are supposed to expeand to seal the chamber: that's why brass is used- it is springy enough to expand to seal the chamber and momentarily grip the chamber walls, and then as pressure drops (bullet leaves barrel), contract enough for easy extraction.....

January 4, 2012, 03:57 PM	#13
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	The 200gr bullet can be loaded hotter, up to 7.5gr Titegroup for a cleaner burn. Better accuracy might be found with a 250gr bullet. Longer bearing surface might help. Or even the 300gr bullet?

January 5, 2012, 09:02 AM	#14
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	I just bought sosme 250gr Hornady XTP - I'll try them out this weekend. Thanks for all the detailed explanations.