Civilan Training

[Netzapper]

Is there any point in a civilian taking a course like Gunsite's 250?

I'd sort of like to get into tactical competitions (IDPA, etc.), and while I can shoot alright, I definitely lack any sort of training or experience in shooting in "tactical" situations.

Is it worth the time/money to get training somewhere, or am I better off just spending a lot of time at the range, and learning as I lose in competition?

[Pat Rogers]

Net,
If the sole purpose of shooting is to compete, take a course that is narrowly and specifically related to competing.
Gunsite teaches fighting- as do a great many others. Fighting and IPSC / IDPA are not directly related. However, they are fun, and teach certain mechanicla skills and keep you thinking on your feet.
Competition is not related to tactics.
Trying to learn something by making mistakes is a poor way to go. You are in the middle of a million bad habits, and without having someone qualified to teach correcting you, you are just wasting time.

A great many people come to Gunsite and other schools with the attitude that they can shoot. Generally speaking, by Day 2 they have a realization that they really might not know as much as they think they do.
If you have a firearm, you also have the responsibility to know how to properly use it.

Good luck!

[OF]

I would add to what Pat said that in my opinion, if you want to learn how to shoot, I think competition is the way to do it. By 'shoot' I mean, make good hits on multiple targets at varying distances in the least amount of time possible. Practical pistol competition (if you really get into it) will help you progress faster than you can possibly imagine. You will 'get to know' your gun in short order and how to run it at speed, reload it, get it back up when it fails. You will put large amounts of ammo downrange with constant feedback and make progress with each shot (assuming you put the effort in).

But it will not teach you how to fight with a gun. And some of the techniques you will use in practical shooting will not only not be applicable to gunfighting, but could be counter-productive (any more you could add on that subject, Pat? Do you find that good practical shooters 'take' to the material more easily or are you having to 'break' people of bad habits enough that it outweighs the mechanical skill-level benefits?)


- Gabe

[Pat Rogers]

Well said GRD.
It depends on the shooter, but most competitors will "collapse" immediately after firing the drill. No assessing, no tac loading, just yanking the gun back/ down and speed holstering...
There are exceptions of course, and some make the crossover transparently.

They generally have the mechanics of shooting down very well.

[Netzapper]

Allow me to rephrase: I am personally interested in learning the sorts of fighting skills that these courses teach. That said, they're awfully expensive, and I don't have the "how much is your life worth" justification, since the probability of me being in any sort of gunfight other than someone breaking into my house approaches zero.

However, I would like to do competition, and definitely need training on how to engage multiple targets quickly, etc. As such, I'm trying to figure out if a good gunfighting course might teach me enough to get started in competition, and also teach me enough so that if I wind up having that billion-to-one-against situation, I might survive it.

Basically, I can't justify the expense to myself based merely on curiosity, and am trying to determine if I could put the skills learned to use in a "practical" (to me) way.

[Pat Rogers]

The cost/ benefit is something you will have to justify.
I have been to over 50 formal shooting courses. Of those i paid for roughly half (you paid for the rest).
That it would greatly benefit me was never a question. I learned at least two new things from every one (and that can be positive or negative learning).
My entire adult life has been involved with fighting, the majority with firearms, so there was a vested interest on my part in keeping current.

You have a gun. And, as Jeff Cooper has oft stated "Possessing a firearm no more means you are armed then possessing a piano means you are a musician".

Just FYI- the greater majority of gunsite students are civilians.

Your choices.

[OF]

And I'd add from the competitors perspective, don't wait until you get training to get started shooting in competitions. The people you'll meet will be a great resource re: finding out what to do next or hearing first hand about various schools and certainly what your local area might have to offer you that would fit your needs.

And all you pay is the entry fee

I find lots of people are averse to getting started in competition because they feel they might be in over their head. As long as you are a safe shooter and comfortable with the basic skills, able to perform them safely (loading, unloading, reloading, shooting on the move, clearing malfunctions, shooting one-handed, etc.) get out there and get started. Don't worry about winning or how fast you are, all anyone cares about is how safe you are. There will be people at the events to walk you through the specifics of the sports, don't sweat it.

Every day you wait is a day you will regret having waited once you start.

And there isn't anything about getting started in competition that would preclude you from pursuing your self defense training and the 'extra' cost that competition adds is negligable. All you need is a gun, magazines, holster and pouches. Same as you would for class. So why not get started?

- Gabe

[MX5]

Is there any point in a civilian taking a course like Gunsite's 250?

Ummm, yeah the 250 course is ok for a "civilian" to take. In fact, that's what it's for. If you are at all concerned about being out of place, don't be.

As for competion shooting, I'll echo GRD's sentiments. As a co-founder of an IPSC (USPSA) club, I find it very discouraging when folks won't come shoot with us because they feel inadequate. My goodness, our club was chartered by new shooters for new shooters. Even the old established clubs know the life's blood of the organization is the recruitment of new shooters. We want any safe shooter to come participate. Heck, we will even loan you the gear.

[OF]

Heck, we will even loan you the gear.

You can't beat that. What more could you want?!

- Gabe

[rezmedic54]

Go out to IDPA's web site down load some of there COF's and go play. In no way does competition set you up for the real thing though. As long as you understand that you'll be ok.

[Terry Twit]

As a person who has been lucky enough to train under Pat, I echo the sentiment that you don't know what you don't know until you go to 'gun school'. I'm not a competitive shooter, and being a 'gunfighter' type doesn't guarantee that you'll do well in competition..but I'd rather learn potentially lifesaving skills that can coincidentally be used for recreation than learn game skills that could possibly get me killed.

My humble .02.

[KSFreeman]

And one time, at gun camp . . .

250 isn't just about learning to shoot tight groups (a feat that I may NEVER achieve ). The basic courses are about developing the gun handling skills and initiation of the aware mindset.

As wise man in Oreygun sez, "this class is about learning how not to poke yourself in the eye with the pistol."

There is a Chinese martial arts saying that applies here in gun fu, "three days with the master is worth three years training alone." As a humble student of many of the schools, even THE Pat Rogers, I can firmly state that you will not truly understand what you are missing until you go.

5 days of shooting guns, living in America and away from the wife and office, how could one go wrong!

[Terry Twit]

I love Gun Camp. Uncle Pat makes us learn new words, we sing songs around the campfire, make s'mores.... I liked it so much I'm going to Pat n' Ken's again this summer, provided I'm not in Iraq.