Anyone Have Lake City SS109 Clone Load Data?

riverwalker76 · April 7, 2010, 03:59 PM

I shot some Lake City SS109 cartridges that I bought in a recent coop deal with a relative. I love them so much that I've decided to load some of my own. Does anyone know where I can get the load data for powder used and charge?

The reason I ask is that sometimes someone has a MILSURP load data sheet that has this info on it for specific cartridges.

Also, I've noticed that the bullets are a little longer than standard 62 gr. FMJBT bullets. Even though they have a cannelure that matches the standard .... should I still seat them to that depth?

azredhawk44 · April 7, 2010, 04:54 PM

http://www.targetstands.com/manuals/armyammodata.pdf

TM-43-0001 is the manual you're looking for.

Page 170:

Quote:

Propellant:
Type ...............................WC 844
Weight ............................26.1 gr

riverwalker76 · April 7, 2010, 05:00 PM

WHat is the civilian equivalent of WC844?

I have Accurate 2230, H4895, IMR 8208 XBR, IMR 3031, and Benchmark on hand. Are any of those close to the equivalent?

Maybe Unclenick could chime in. Are you out there Unclenick?

**Unclenick** · April 7, 2010, 05:22 PM

H335 is canister grade WC844 (see MSDS at Hodgdon to verify it if you wish). Note that the military loads non-canister grades to a specific performance levels (min and max pressure as well as min muzzle energy) and rejects any lot that can't be loaded to perform within that range. I don't know what non-canister lot the 26.1 grain spec comes from. Just be prepared that the burn rate adjusted canister grade may not hit exactly that.

Also, you don't have Lake City primers. I recommend you get CCI #41's to come as close as you can, then start at about 24 grains and work up toward 26.1 with pulled military SS 109 bullets. I believe those bullets have steel cores, which is why they are less dense and longer than commercial jacket and core of the same weight. If you can, chronograph about 30 of your current lot to get a solid average velocity, then see if you can get there with your reloads without pressure signs or without significantly exceeding 26.1 grains.

riverwalker76 · April 7, 2010, 05:25 PM

So ... is it safe to say that I can load H335 to the same grain specs. as WC844?

**Unclenick** · April 7, 2010, 05:33 PM

I just edited to complete the answer. Wife called me away after the first sentence.

One thing I don't know, since I've never pulled any of these myself, is whether they still have the pitch sealant the .30 cal ammo always had? If so, they may have higher start pressure and need something like the Lee factory crimp to get up to the same pressure and velocity with the same load.

riverwalker76 · April 7, 2010, 05:51 PM

Oh .. I have 5k CCI 41 primers. I can just use those.

I also use the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

riverwalker76 · April 7, 2010, 06:08 PM

Also, I've been thinking about it ....

Instead of going out and buying MORE powder .... due to my present overstock .... couldn't I just work up a load using IMR 8208 XBR, and see if I can't come close to the same velocities?

The reason I ask is that I don't see any sense in buying more powder right now. I have more than enough with close to 5 pounds or more of everything I listed earlier. I don't have to duplicate the Lake City Load exactly. I just want to get close to the same velocities. See what I mean?

Why couldn't I just work up a load using IMR 8208 XBR and stop when I hit the desired velocity?

azredhawk44 · April 7, 2010, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Why couldn't I just work up a load using IMR 8208 XBR and stop when I hit the desired velocity?

I'm not familiar with IMR 8208 XBR... but think about this sentence:

Why couldn't I just work up a load using Titegroup and stop when I hit the desired velocity?

Titegroup has a much faster burn rate than H335. It hits peak pressure faster.

I don't know the numbers, but Titegroup may hit peak .223 chamber pressure with 8.0gr (spitballing here). But, it will only produce 1800fps velocity (again a spitball). Increasing charge to get 3000fps in such a combination will result in a blown-to-smithereens-AR.

The burn rate difference is less between IMR 8208 and H335 than H335 and Titegroup... but chasing velocity is not a safe practice when substituting powder.

riverwalker76 · April 7, 2010, 07:34 PM

Never heard of Titegroup nor do I own any.

My point is this .....

Here are the numbers ....

SS109 Cartridge using WC844 @ 26.1 gr.

Pressure ~ 55,000 psi .......... Velocity ~ 3025 fps

Clone Load using Accurate 2230 @ 23.7 gr.

Pressure ~ 54,600 psi .......... Velocity ~ 3043 fps

I could probably back this load down another .3 grains to hit the desired 3025 fps. mark.

Although, the IMR 8208 XBR DOES NOT look like a desirable powder to use, because the pressure gets into the 51,000 PSI mark at only around 2990 fps.

So, maybe the Accurate 2230 would be the better way to go.

azredhawk44 · April 7, 2010, 07:41 PM

Titegroup was an attempt at a blatant example, since it is a pistol powder typically used for autofeeder cartridges.

However, your data proves the same point I was trying to express. It would not be safe to chase velocity with that powder. You would exceed maximum pressure ratings.

AA2230 sounds like a great candidate powder.

**Unclenick** · April 8, 2010, 04:25 PM

To sum up, different burning rate powders produce different pressures when producing the same velocity. Using enough of a fast powder to get to a particular velocity generates higher pressure than a slow one will in achieving that same velocity. This is because fast powder makes most of its gas before the bullet has moved very far down the tube, so the gas is jammed into a tighter volume than it will be for a slow powder.

For example, QuickLOAD predicts that to send a 62 grain Privi Partizan FMJ to 3000 fps from a 20" tube from a case with 30.5 grains water capacity requires a load that produces:

IMR 3031 48,983 psi
IMR 4198 56,648 psi
IMR 4227 61,292 psi

More extreme:
Alliant POWER PISTOL 83,052 psi
Alliant UNIQUE 105,042 psi
Vihtavuori N310 134,621 psi

azredhawk44 · April 8, 2010, 06:15 PM

Thank you, UncleNick. You explained that much better.

I may have to get me a copy of Quickload.

April 7, 2010, 03:59 PM	#1
riverwalker76 Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2010 Location: Kentucky Posts: 993	Anyone Have Lake City SS109 Clone Load Data? I shot some Lake City SS109 cartridges that I bought in a recent coop deal with a relative. I love them so much that I've decided to load some of my own. Does anyone know where I can get the load data for powder used and charge? The reason I ask is that sometimes someone has a MILSURP load data sheet that has this info on it for specific cartridges. Also, I've noticed that the bullets are a little longer than standard 62 gr. FMJBT bullets. Even though they have a cannelure that matches the standard .... should I still seat them to that depth? __________________ *Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto* - “You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.” Last edited by riverwalker76; April 7, 2010 at 04:39 PM.

April 7, 2010, 05:00 PM	#3
riverwalker76 Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2010 Location: Kentucky Posts: 993	WHat is the civilian equivalent of WC844? I have Accurate 2230, H4895, IMR 8208 XBR, IMR 3031, and Benchmark on hand. Are any of those close to the equivalent? Maybe Unclenick could chime in. Are you out there Unclenick? __________________ *Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto* - “You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.”

April 7, 2010, 05:25 PM	#5
riverwalker76 Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2010 Location: Kentucky Posts: 993	So ... is it safe to say that I can load H335 to the same grain specs. as WC844? __________________ *Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto* - “You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.”

April 7, 2010, 05:33 PM	#6
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	I just edited to complete the answer. Wife called me away after the first sentence. One thing I don't know, since I've never pulled any of these myself, is whether they still have the pitch sealant the .30 cal ammo always had? If so, they may have higher start pressure and need something like the Lee factory crimp to get up to the same pressure and velocity with the same load. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 7, 2010, 05:51 PM	#7
riverwalker76 Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2010 Location: Kentucky Posts: 993	Oh .. I have 5k CCI 41 primers. I can just use those. I also use the Lee Factory Crimp Die. __________________ *Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto* - “You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.”

April 7, 2010, 05:22 PM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	H335 is canister grade WC844 (see MSDS at Hodgdon to verify it if you wish). Note that the military loads non-canister grades to a specific performance levels (min and max pressure as well as min muzzle energy) and rejects any lot that can't be loaded to perform within that range. I don't know what non-canister lot the 26.1 grain spec comes from. Just be prepared that the burn rate adjusted canister grade may not hit exactly that. Also, you don't have Lake City primers. I recommend you get CCI #41's to come as close as you can, then start at about 24 grains and work up toward 26.1 with pulled military SS 109 bullets. I believe those bullets have steel cores, which is why they are less dense and longer than commercial jacket and core of the same weight. If you can, chronograph about 30 of your current lot to get a solid average velocity, then see if you can get there with your reloads without pressure signs or without significantly exceeding 26.1 grains. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; April 7, 2010 at 05:40 PM.

April 7, 2010, 06:08 PM	#8
riverwalker76 Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2010 Location: Kentucky Posts: 993	Also, I've been thinking about it .... Instead of going out and buying MORE powder .... due to my present overstock .... couldn't I just work up a load using IMR 8208 XBR, and see if I can't come close to the same velocities? The reason I ask is that I don't see any sense in buying more powder right now. I have more than enough with close to 5 pounds or more of everything I listed earlier. I don't have to duplicate the Lake City Load exactly. I just want to get close to the same velocities. See what I mean? Why couldn't I just work up a load using IMR 8208 XBR and stop when I hit the desired velocity? __________________ *Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto* - “You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.”

April 7, 2010, 07:34 PM	#10
riverwalker76 Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2010 Location: Kentucky Posts: 993	Never heard of Titegroup nor do I own any. My point is this ..... Here are the numbers .... SS109 Cartridge using WC844 @ 26.1 gr. Pressure ~ 55,000 psi .......... Velocity ~ 3025 fps Clone Load using Accurate 2230 @ 23.7 gr. Pressure ~ 54,600 psi .......... Velocity ~ 3043 fps I could probably back this load down another .3 grains to hit the desired 3025 fps. mark. Although, the IMR 8208 XBR DOES NOT look like a desirable powder to use, because the pressure gets into the 51,000 PSI mark at only around 2990 fps. So, maybe the Accurate 2230 would be the better way to go. __________________ *Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto* - “You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.”

April 7, 2010, 07:41 PM	#11
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	Titegroup was an attempt at a blatant example, since it is a pistol powder typically used for autofeeder cartridges. However, your data proves the same point I was trying to express. It would not be safe to chase velocity with that powder. You would exceed maximum pressure ratings. AA2230 sounds like a great candidate powder.

April 8, 2010, 04:25 PM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	To sum up, different burning rate powders produce different pressures when producing the same velocity. Using enough of a fast powder to get to a particular velocity generates higher pressure than a slow one will in achieving that same velocity. This is because fast powder makes most of its gas before the bullet has moved very far down the tube, so the gas is jammed into a tighter volume than it will be for a slow powder. For example, QuickLOAD predicts that to send a 62 grain Privi Partizan FMJ to 3000 fps from a 20" tube from a case with 30.5 grains water capacity requires a load that produces: IMR 3031 48,983 psi IMR 4198 56,648 psi IMR 4227 61,292 psi More extreme: Alliant POWER PISTOL 83,052 psi Alliant UNIQUE 105,042 psi Vihtavuori N310 134,621 psi __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; April 9, 2010 at 12:17 PM.

April 8, 2010, 06:15 PM	#13
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	Thank you, UncleNick. You explained that much better. I may have to get me a copy of Quickload.